Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506


new guy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Just like T26...


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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

It lists a bunch of weapons the Royal Navy doesn't use, so it does hurt its credibility a bit.

As we have not seen a FMS for more MK41's yet, I wonder if (or when?) the type 31 does get them if they will use some of the type 26 orders and back fill them later.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Jdam wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 08:07 It lists a bunch of weapons the Royal Navy doesn't use, so it goes hurt its credibility a bit.

As we have not seen a FMS for more MK41's yet, I wonder if the type 31 does get them if they will use some of the type 26 orders and back fill them later.
The only weapon listed that could be of any use to T-31 is TLAM

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 09:43
Jdam wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 08:07 It lists a bunch of weapons the Royal Navy doesn't use, so it goes hurt its credibility a bit.

As we have not seen a FMS for more MK41's yet, I wonder if the type 31 does get them if they will use some of the type 26 orders and back fill them later.
The only weapon listed that could be of any use to T-31 is TLAM
This has always been my concern with Mk41 on T31 and T26 is that despite endorsing the VLS the RN then haven't gone on to indicate what would actually go in it.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 09:43 The only weapon listed that could be of any use to T-31 is TLAM
Sadly, no. RN has zero VL-variant of TLAM. RN have never ordered the TLAM control electronics system need for Mk.41VLS. So, not yet. I like to see RN ordering 500-1000 TLAM now. Making a hi-lo-mix with FCASW stealth long-range. Forget about FCASW super-sonic version, and continue hyper-sonic missile options.

Super-sonic missile is nowadays a bit less popular than before. Japan is significantly reducing the ASM-3A Mach-3 missile procurement, and going for mass production of type-12-mod sub-sonic long-range ASM.
Hyper-sonic is great, but it is now well known to have limitation = slow down in terminal phase, and being deadly expensive. (both is well known from before, just ignored)

I guess a simple long-range cruise missile requirement will not disappear. TLAM will fits in here as the cheapest option.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/equipment/ ... tion-class

The most interesting is its speed. Now quoted as 26 knots. I think this value does NOT means T31's speed has been reduced. Iver Huilfeldt class is quoted to be capable of 30+ knots by Danish navy. I guess it is just the condition required. Sea State, Swell, full-load, etc., worse conditions.

Good side of this is, the "26 knots top speed" of T26 frigate will mean it is "as high speed as Iver Huilfeldt class", which means can reach 30+ knots in many of the conditions.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Dec 2023, 03:57
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 09:43 The only weapon listed that could be of any use to T-31 is TLAM
Sadly, no. RN has zero VL-variant of TLAM. RN have never ordered the TLAM control electronics system need for Mk.41VLS. So, not yet. I like to see RN ordering 500-1000 TLAM now. Making a hi-lo-mix with FCASW stealth long-range. Forget about FCASW super-sonic version, and continue hyper-sonic missile options.

Super-sonic missile is nowadays a bit less popular than before. Japan is significantly reducing the ASM-3A Mach-3 missile procurement, and going for mass production of type-12-mod sub-sonic long-range ASM.
Hyper-sonic is great, but it is now well known to have limitation = slow down in terminal phase, and being deadly expensive. (both is well known from before, just ignored)

I guess a simple long-range cruise missile requirement will not disappear. TLAM will fits in here as the cheapest option.
I agree we need to buy say 700 VL-TLAM but know where did I say the RN had them but they were the only weapon on the list that the RN could find a use for

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 23 Dec 2023, 04:00 https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/equipment/ ... tion-class

The most interesting is its speed. Now quoted as 26 knots. I think this value does NOT means T31's speed has been reduced. Iver Huilfeldt class is quoted to be capable of 30+ knots by Danish navy. I guess it is just the condition required. Sea State, Swell, full-load, etc., worse conditions.

Good side of this is, the "26 knots top speed" of T26 frigate will mean it is "as high speed as Iver Huilfeldt class", which means can reach 30+ knots in many of the conditions.
Yes the RN could not have there tire 2 frigate stated as faster than tire 1 frigate that might lead to questions

You are right it must be the RN figure for a set sea state we all know the Danish navy state that both the Absalon and IH classes can make 24 knots on 2 engines

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

tomuk wrote: 23 Dec 2023, 02:11
Tempest414 wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 09:43
Jdam wrote: 22 Dec 2023, 08:07 It lists a bunch of weapons the Royal Navy doesn't use, so it goes hurt its credibility a bit.

As we have not seen a FMS for more MK41's yet, I wonder if the type 31 does get them if they will use some of the type 26 orders and back fill them later.
The only weapon listed that could be of any use to T-31 is TLAM
This has always been my concern with Mk41 on T31 and T26 is that despite endorsing the VLS the RN then haven't gone on to indicate what would actually go in it.
this is the big question but if we were to quad pack CAMM and buy and fit TLAM that would fit with the Type 31's role

As said before having 2 or 3 type 31's in the Indian Ocean fitted with 32 CAMM , 24 TLAM , 8 x NSM and a Wildcat if they came together as a strike force they would be a nice package with 96 CAMM , 72 TLAM , 24 NSM and 3 x Wildcats

And if we were to take the next step this package in one part of the Indo-Pacific and the CSG in another would be a handful

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Some interesting updates and details on Poland's Type 31s:

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... lly-armed/
The Armament Agency has announced that the serial frigates (the second and third units) will recieve sensors and effectors the same as those contracted for the first prototype unit, thus allowing for operations in the anti-air and anti-surface domains. The second and third frigates will be armed with, among other things, 76mm Leonardo Super Rapido Strales gun, Lockheed Martin VLS Mk 41 Strike Lenght launcher (32 chambers) with ExLS Host (Extensible Launching System for CAMM missiles), MBDA UK Sea Ceptor anti-aircraft and anti-missle system with CAMM and CAMM-ER missiles, Thales Sea Master SM410 (with four AESA fixed antennas) and NS50 (with AESA rotating antenna) radar systems, Thales Artemis IRST systems (InfraRed Search andr Track), Saab NLWS (Naval Laser Warning System), as well as electronic warfare, defence systems and IFF identification systems.
TAS and ASuW potentially to be FFBNW:
This means that perhaps Thales CAPTAS-2 towed sonars and some other equipment (torpedo tubes etc.) will remain as options. The announcement also does not mention about the RBS-15 Mk3+ anti-ship missiles, and other systems.
Quite the budget increase:
Following the conclusion of Annex 4, the value of the contract is PLN 14.8bn gross (approximately €3.4bn), which represents 92% of the estimated cost of the entire programme. This amount does not include missiles and artillery ammunition, nor the optional equipment of the serial pair of frigates, which indicates that the price may exceed PLN 16bn (about EUR 3.6bn). For the record, when the contract with the consortium was concluded, the expected cost of the programme was estimated at PLN 8 billion (approximately €1.85bn).
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:30 The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
Interesting how they have taken a 400 million pound ship and turned it into a 1.1 billion euro ship would be every interesting to know the unit price v the program price

also things like the cost of NS110 v Sea Master 400

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by inch »

I've thought so for a long time the British governments "which ever colour" MOD , civil service department and those in charge,are a bunch of hoo ray Henry's ,I just wish some real relevant no nonsense people would take charge AND responsibility to adequately look at the real picture of what's happening in the world and make the correct decisions,for spend levels and armaments to meet the threat level ,not bollox political showmanship and slight of hand ,where i am starting to think rightly or wrongly is that the uk might not be able to rely on America to come to the rescue,or Europe for that matter in time of need ,but don't get me wrong im not bashing America,fair enough,but UK should adequately assess that situation and build redundancy and forces and equipment to deal with the situation ,and low numbers and underarmed vessels is a good place to start

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Tempest414 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:59
Ron5 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:30 The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
Interesting how they have taken a 400 million pound ship and turned it into a 1.1 billion euro ship would be every interesting to know the unit price v the program price

also things like the cost of NS110 v Sea Master 400
Don't worry, they're just "evolving" the design which costs next to nothing ;)
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Yes it's good but Since they are polish tier 1 ships they would throw the best weopons & sensor fit they can, but being as the T31 will be the uk "keep the numbers up ships" a cheaper fit version aint to bad - not sure even mk41 are essential as long as they get a minimum of 24 CAMM (48 would be better) & 8 NSM & put the "not gold plated" money elsewhere....beter crew retention, more ammo stocks..... also if they do turn out to be 1.1bn euro ships ? wouldn't another T26 be better for the RN rather than ovespec-ing a T31 ?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

serge750 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 15:57 Yes it's good but Since they are polish tier 1 ships they would throw the best weopons & sensor fit they can, but being as the T31 will be the uk "keep the numbers up ships" a cheaper fit version aint to bad - not sure even mk41 are essential as long as they get a minimum of 24 CAMM (48 would be better) & 8 NSM & put the "not gold plated" money elsewhere....beter crew retention, more ammo stocks..... also if they do turn out to be 1.1bn euro ships ? wouldn't another T26 be better for the RN rather than ovespec-ing a T31 ?
I think the Polish ships unit price will be lot lower its the program costs that are high
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Yeh i thought that aswell - if they turn out be 1bn + perhaps they are employing our ( uk ) mod to "help" out :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:30 The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
Short of secretly building another three, I find it such a large sum I'm not sure it can be explained with mere gold plating. Considering neither RBS-15 nor a TAS are included

The original estimate at c.€1.85bn seems far more in line with what you'd expect from ships 9-11 of an established design that's being enhanced for Polish requirements.

I'm guessing there's a lot of something being bundled in.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Most current and accurate model of T31

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

new guy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:09 Most current and accurate model of T31
It doesn't look like anything has changed.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

So at least 6 months behind schedule and we know they're overrunning budget.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:09 Most current and accurate model of T31

Damn, can't count the mushrooms. Our favorite pastime :D
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