Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

US Navy MSI Mk38 Mod4 which think based on the DS30, assume MSI won the contract in preference to the incumbent US Navy BAE Mk38 Mod 3 25mm, as the DS30 gun mounting was capable of handling the ~50% heavier recoil of the more powerful 30 x 173 round needed for C-UAS than the 25 x 137 round.

PS Northrop Grumman with US Army have developed a 30mm proximity fuzed projectile

4:30

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

BB85 wrote: 17 Jan 2023, 13:16 Is the current 30mm cannon not remotely operated? I know they have a chair and control panel attached to the side, but I'm sure I have seen them swivel and conduct test firings with an empty chair on online video's.
Some of the newer guns don't even have the chair at all, but that doesn't mean the older cannon needs to be manned at all times.
Yes the 30mm can be controlled but the small arms points still need manning so six crew needed to defend the ship

BB85
Member
Posts: 218
Joined: 09 Sep 2021, 20:17
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by BB85 »

Thanks, makes sense now regarding the LMM reference. I had it in my head you were referring to the LMM missile mounts on the side of the DS30 cannons they where testing recently, not the Light Machine-gun Mounts that makes more sense :)

I'm guessing we will always require the light machine gun mounts as a redundancy measure in case the remotely operated cannons are out of action or the mk1 eyes balls have a wider field of view than what shows up at close range on a tv screen. Who knows someday they could all be AI operated and I wouldn't want to be sailing to close


donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Of course, it is unofficial, but Navylookout assumes
- CAMM is 12
- no hull sonar
- no NSM
- 3 RHIBs.

As expected. And, not so bad, actually.

Image

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:38 Of course, it is unofficial, but Navylookout assumes
- CAMM is 12
- no hull sonar
- no NSM
- 3 RHIBs.

As expected. And, not so bad, actually.

Image
This configuration was based on comments from Babcocks and Thales (mostly Thales) at the time of the contract. The Thales guy actually said the radar could be easily upgraded to the next model up and that option was being kept open. Since then they've been more tight lipped and AFAIK, the website has been the only other company-blessed source of information.

Somebody from the RN (sorry I don't remember who, what, or when) later said the number of CAMM was still under review and could be increased. Presumably because of the reported unhappiness within the Navy of the meager 12. Also presumably only if the base contract was met, the extra cost being taken from contingency funds.

I suspect now that MoD money is in even shorter supply than before, they will enter service with this config and any upgrades will the considered for the first refit.

I think the config is crap for a frigate. Unable to defend against, or hurt, any significant threat. And totally below the investment the Navy is making in resources and people. Very poor ROI. But I am guilty of beating a dead horse by saying this, all the arguments pro and con have already been made here.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 6427
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Pitcairn Island

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

It is a bit crap. It's a frigate that can only defend itself, and its not goanna be great at that!

It's saving grace is the T31 is big, and with that comes potential to be less crap in the future.
These users liked the author shark bait for the post:
serge750
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:38 Of course, it is unofficial, but Navylookout assumes
- CAMM is 12
- no hull sonar
- no NSM
- 3 RHIBs.

As expected. And, not so bad, actually.

Image
Anyone can see that large parts if not all of the Navylookout article was a cut and paste job take from TomW's great post here on this every thread 10 days ago

No I still believe type will sail on its first deployment with 24 CAMM , 8 x NSM & 2170 anti torpedo system

Online
User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

So that’s why:

This article is based on a paper submitted to the International Naval Engineering Conference, November 2022 by James Johnson (Type 31 Frigate Transversals Engineering Manager) and Matt Howard (Chief Engineer, Arrowhead-140), Babcock International, Bristol.
These users liked the author RichardIC for the post:
Repulse

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

shark bait wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 15:48 It is a bit crap. It's a frigate that can only defend itself, and its not goanna be great at that!

It's saving grace is the T31 is big, and with that comes potential to be less crap in the future.
It’s totally crap, and it’s not a positive to be big, relatively expensive and crew hungry.

I accept we’ve got them now, but for god sake let’s make them capable - a large floating flagpole which is hopefully capable of running away from trouble is not a capability the RN needs.
These users liked the author Repulse for the post:
Ron5
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

yes and it left a lot out

Online
User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

I hadn’t noticed that paper had been published here. Most enticing paragraph is:

As such, it is important to note that at the time of writing (May 2022) the capability that has been identified so far in open source material only comprises some of the systems included within the initial design & build contract, which is not the total capability of the Type 31 Frigate that will be delivered into RN service on the ISD.

The adaptable provisions designed within the platform will support the full capability that the RN will employ; a package of capability upgrades are planned to be installed in the Type 31 Frigates once the platforms are delivered by the shipbuilder, prior to ISD with the RN, as part of the overall MoD delivery programme.
These users liked the author RichardIC for the post (total 4):
tomukserge750shark baitCaribbean

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 2762
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

12 CAMM on entry into service? I'll beleive it when I see it

Phil Sayers
Member
Posts: 365
Joined: 03 May 2015, 13:56

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Phil Sayers »

I will easily believe that they will only carry 12 CAAM when they enter service but that will be because half of the 24 cells are empty.
These users liked the author Phil Sayers for the post:
dmereifield

pko100
Member
Posts: 39
Joined: 07 Feb 2020, 10:21
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by pko100 »

There is a planned programme for each ship to have capability inserted after they are accepted off contract. That will be mte plus any equipment rotated off decommissioned Type 23s. Increasing CAMM load to 24 does not materially increase the cost of the ship.

I think the thought of 32 mk 41 and nsm being fitted any time soon is very unlikely. In the late 20s, the navy will be funding SV-CAMM and Sea Viper SVE as well as trying to find headroom for type 32. FC?/ASW will also be costing a lot in that time frame and if nsm is fitted to other platforms, I expect it will go to the Type 26s.

Following on from the Ukraine war, if any additional money is found for defence, I expect the lions share will go to the army to close the existing horrendous capability gaps in artillery, gbad, ifvs and ammunition holdings etc.

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

shark bait wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 15:48 It is a bit crap. It's a frigate that can only defend itself….
Actually a T31 embarking 2 Wildcats is already a pretty formidable surface hunter without further adaptation. Add in 16x NSM (space already allocated) and the 32 FFBNW Mk41 cells are not a priority.

IMO the location of the FFBNW Mk41 cells have massively compromised the amidships mission spaces which RN will eventually regret as the strike length cells are unlikely ever to be fitted. The mission space under the flightdeck is very welcome but without a deck crane, containers cannot be transferred between the mission spaces whilst at sea.

IMO the solution for the second batch of T31 (or T32) is pretty simple. First remove the 40mm from the B position and exchange with 16 Mk41 cells and 32 CAMM. Add the second 40mm above the hanger to allow for both port and starboard 40mm’s and retain the 57mm in the A position, or ideally, replace with the Mk45. Improve the amidships mission spaces by allowing TEUs to be transferred from the flightdeck through the hanger into the mission space and add a deck crane to allow the under flight deck space to be accessed whilst at sea. Add a stern ramp and ensure a TAS/VDS can be embarked if necessary via PODs. Lastly, retain the current space above the amidships mission area for 16 containerised NSM.

Finally RN would get the GP frigate that is desperately needed.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

pko100 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 23:45 There is a planned programme for each ship to have capability inserted after they are accepted off contract. That will be mte plus any equipment rotated off decommissioned Type 23s. Increasing CAMM load to 24 does not materially increase the cost of the ship.

I think the thought of 32 mk 41 and nsm being fitted any time soon is very unlikely. In the late 20s, the navy will be funding SV-CAMM and Sea Viper SVE as well as trying to find headroom for type 32. FC?/ASW will also be costing a lot in that time frame and if nsm is fitted to other platforms, I expect it will go to the Type 26s.

Following on from the Ukraine war, if any additional money is found for defence, I expect the lions share will go to the army to close the existing horrendous capability gaps in artillery, gbad, ifvs and ammunition holdings etc.
An interesting comment that prompted a couple of thoughts.

Firstly, if additional CAMM cells are so cheap, why wasn't the base contract specified with 24, 36 or 48 cells?

Secondly, obviously, the MoD is going to be very short of money, inflation will continue, and the army will have its wishlist raised in priority. So what will save the plan to upgrade the T31's before service entry? Hard to see Wallace putting the cost of fitting extra missiles etc on a patrol frigate ahead of new artillery/missiles/tanks/Boxers for the army.

That's even assuming the T31's will come in on budget.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:54 Actually a T31 embarking 2 Wildcats is already a pretty formidable surface hunter without further adaptation
Hunting what? Fishing boats, pirates, Iranian boat swarms?

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

An interesting viewpoint form Rachel Pawling. Read the entire thread.


Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

An alternative view from Harry Lye. Once again, read the entire thread.


donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ron5 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:55 An alternative view from Harry Lye. Once again, read the entire thread.

No problem, T31 has a 57mm gun which can fire 3P ammo and even guided ammo, 2x 40mm gun with 3P ammo. It also has a state of the art ESM/ECM and decoy launcher :D

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4583
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 16:17 No problem, T31 has a 57mm gun which can fire 3P ammo and even guided ammo, 2x 40mm gun with 3P ammo. It also has a state of the art ESM/ECM and decoy launcher :D
You’d need to let them get damn close to make any of that have a hope in hell to hit / deflect anything…

If they are that crap, best use them close to home under a layered defence.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3958
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Ron5 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:03
Poiuytrewq wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:54 Actually a T31 embarking 2 Wildcats is already a pretty formidable surface hunter without further adaptation
Hunting what? Fishing boats, pirates, Iranian boat swarms?
IMO, from a strategic standpoint I think the T31/Wildcat/NSM/Sea Venom combination is underrated especially in the Littoral.

If each T31 embarks 2 Wildcats with LMM and Sea Venom plus 16x NSM, two or three such vessels operating as a group would cause a serious strategic headache for any adversary.
These users liked the author Poiuytrewq for the post (total 2):
mrclark303wargame_insomniac

User avatar
mrclark303
Donator
Posts: 813
Joined: 06 May 2015, 10:47
United Kingdom

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by mrclark303 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 19:53
Ron5 wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 15:03
Poiuytrewq wrote: 21 Jan 2023, 10:54 Actually a T31 embarking 2 Wildcats is already a pretty formidable surface hunter without further adaptation
Hunting what? Fishing boats, pirates, Iranian boat swarms?
IMO, from a strategic standpoint I think the T31/Wildcat/NSM/Sea Venom combination is underrated especially in the Littoral.

If each T31 embarks 2 Wildcats with LMM and Sea Venom plus 16x NSM, two or three such vessels operating as a group would cause a serious strategic headache for any adversary.
Absolutely, again, let's not forget the very capable duel gun fit too....

JohnM
Donator
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 Apr 2020, 19:39
United States of America

Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Where did you guys get the 16xNSM from? They’ll be lucky to get 8xNSM hand-me-downs from the T23 as they retire…

Post Reply