Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 08:54 to get a real inflation cost you have to use the type 31 Babcock contract of 1.25 billion not 2 billion so your figure of 450 million is way way off
Disagree.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 10:48
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 08:54 to get a real inflation cost you have to use the type 31 Babcock contract of 1.25 billion not 2 billion so your figure of 450 million is way way off
Disagree.
You would not agree because it dose not suit you to. You know dame well that you are comparing unit price to program price and you also know dame well the program started in 2017 and the only big contract that has been given for type 31 is 1.25 billion to Babcock's so the hard fact is you are wrong

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 11:14You would not agree because it dose not suit you to. You know dame well that you are comparing unit price to program price and you also know dame well the program started in 2017 and the only big contract that has been given for type 31 is 1.25 billion to Babcock's so the hard fact is you are wrong
No. Simply because NAO report of the day said, "T26 program cost 3.7Bn, and T31 £2Bn". (NAO also noted that the T31 program cost has increased by 66% from £1.25Bn to £2Bn). This is what I base myself. Simple and clean.

Babcock contract is SURELY, only a part of the T31 program. It was announced so officially.

How can you ignore these official results?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 13:11
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 11:14You would not agree because it dose not suit you to. You know dame well that you are comparing unit price to program price and you also know dame well the program started in 2017 and the only big contract that has been given for type 31 is 1.25 billion to Babcock's so the hard fact is you are wrong
No. Simply because NAO report of the day said, "T26 program cost 3.7Bn, and T31 £2Bn". (NAO also noted that the T31 program cost has increased by 66% from £1.25Bn to £2Bn). This is what I base myself. Simple and clean.

Babcock contract is SURELY, only a part of the T31 program. It was announced so officially.

How can you ignore these official results?
But it is not simple and clean as you have now moved from the batch 2 order to the batch 1 order plus you then want to add in full program costs for type 31 at the same time as using less than half the full program costs of type 26 it a complete crock of shit

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 13:11
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 11:14You would not agree because it dose not suit you to. You know dame well that you are comparing unit price to program price and you also know dame well the program started in 2017 and the only big contract that has been given for type 31 is 1.25 billion to Babcock's so the hard fact is you are wrong
No. Simply because NAO report of the day said, "T26 program cost 3.7Bn, and T31 £2Bn". (NAO also noted that the T31 program cost has increased by 66% from £1.25Bn to £2Bn). This is what I base myself. Simple and clean.

Babcock contract is SURELY, only a part of the T31 program. It was announced so officially.

How can you ignore these official results?
Also the NAO was wrong was it not at the point at which the 3.7 billion contract was given to BAE the program cost was 4.559 billion as BAE had been given a 859 million pound contract for on going design and long lead parts for the first ships

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 13:11
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 11:14You would not agree because it dose not suit you to. You know dame well that you are comparing unit price to program price and you also know dame well the program started in 2017 and the only big contract that has been given for type 31 is 1.25 billion to Babcock's so the hard fact is you are wrong
No. Simply because NAO report of the day said, "T26 program cost 3.7Bn, and T31 £2Bn". (NAO also noted that the T31 program cost has increased by 66% from £1.25Bn to £2Bn). This is what I base myself. Simple and clean.

Babcock contract is SURELY, only a part of the T31 program. It was announced so officially.

How can you ignore these official results?
Because we've gone around this a hundred times and the NAO says no such thing. As quoted by Navy Lookout :

(5) Type 31 frigates average £268M (including GFE) per ship

(3) Type 26 frigates Batch 1 average £1.023Bn per ship

(5) Type 26 frigates Batch 2 average £840M per ship

These are Unit Costs not Program Costs.
I can fully believe program cost for T31 is 400 million.
To get program cost for T26 you need add in the pre-concept design work, the development contract and whatever the MOD is contributing towards the modernisation of Govan. (And arguably also the make work OPVs but let's not go down that rabbit hole). And yes it is an apples to apples comparison as Babcock are paying a royalty on the T31 which is built iinto their cost. No different from a Bren gun.

All of the above costs need to be factored up for inflation - but if anything the T26 more so as it started earlier.

Bottom line - T26 aint cheap. Maybe it might be cheaper if it were built more quickly. But that's a what if. It's not proven that the Clyde can build any faster than they're going.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SD67 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 13:33 Because we've gone around this a hundred times and the NAO says no such thing.
Read NAO report, they said so. Its not my word.
As quoted by Navy Lookout :

(5) Type 31 frigates average £268M (including GFE) per ship

(5) Type 26 frigates Batch 2 average £840M per ship

These are Unit Costs not Program Costs.
No objection here.
(3) Type 26 frigates Batch 1 average £1.023Bn per ship
It includes many detailed design cost. Not unit cost. If you look at French FREMM wiki (or there senate report), it clearly states that initial cost amounts to 3 unit-cost equivalent. That's normal.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:41
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 …..HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The T83 is heading in the same direction.

To grow the Royal Navy every class from now on must be bigger than the preceding class. It’s really simple.

RN does not need cruisers.
But the carriers need the best escorts money can buy. Folks over here call them cruisers.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:54 Why is a Chinook capable flight deck a luxury?

The T31 has that capability also. Is it a luxury on the T31 too or is it just sensible to have the ability to land all of your helicopters on all of your flight decks.
And future helo's. And ally helo's. I'll bet that a Chinook deck can handle an Osprey.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:54 If eight T83’s can be procured with a combined AAW/ASW capability then the Royal Navy would have easily the largest and most capable naval fleet in Europe.
Are you expecting to fight them? Shades of Nelson & Drake.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:12
Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:41
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 08:19 …..HMG , MOD dragged they feet and the RN and BAE couldn't stop playing and fucking with the design
The T83 is heading in the same direction.

To grow the Royal Navy every class from now on must be bigger than the preceding class. It’s really simple.

RN does not need cruisers.
But the carriers need the best escorts money can buy. Folks over here call them cruisers.
And yet the USN are getting rid of there Cruisers without direct replacement

I would agree in the main and that is why I said Type 83 needs to be a Multi role destroyer with a run of 22 to 24 to replace T-45 , T-26 and T 31 we could then put theory of numbers to the test

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 08:28
new guy wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 22:09 What is this supposed to mean?
Relative price comparison between classes
Where does the latest Arleigh Burke fit?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 08:28
new guy wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 22:09 What is this supposed to mean?
Relative price comparison between classes
fair

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

SD67 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 08:38 The whole point of the Rosyth facility IMHO was to be what we used to call a “flex plant “. The RN shouldn’t need to keep it fed 100% of the time, 50%-60% should be enough. Batch 1 River replacement, FACs for Ukraine, T31 blocks for Poland maybe a couple of T31 for NZ .
Or the obvious one - simply build blocks for the Clyde. They are not far apart, I’m pretty sure when it comes to bashing steel Babcocks will undercut Bae
Very far by water

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 08 Jun 2023, 19:45 Can we agree on this?

- One T83 equals two T26

- One T26 equals two T31

- One T31 equals two HiCap OPVs

- One HiCap OPV equals two Standard OPVs

Simple?
I hope not if 1 Type 83 = 2 Type 26's we will only get 3 . Type 83 has come in close to the cost of type 26 say a unit price of 900 million or it will mean more cuts

If the cost of type 31 rises to say 340 million per ship it will be 2/5th the cost of a type 26 for type 31 to be half the cost of type 26 we are looking at 420 million and for that it will have 32 Mk-41 cells , 16 NSM HMS and TAS

We need to be careful not to over do Type 31 the sweet spot for T-31 is 1 x 57mm , 2 x 40mm , 24 CAMM , 16 MK-41 , 16 NSM plus a good HMS most of the time they could go day to day with nothing in the MK-41 cells but in times of higher tensions load up with what ever I think this should come in at 330 million
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 05:42
tomuk wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 05:11 The inflation figures you have used are based on CPI, Consumer Price Index. Inflation in defence is different figures published by MOD show inflation of 40.5% for the twelve years 2004 to 2016 CPI for the same period was lower at 30.5%
Thanks. CPI is just one of the indices. "Inflation in defense" includes many aspects. CPI also includes many aspects.

Both has a meaning, I think. And, as you stated, defense inflation tends to be larger than CPI, so basing on CPI is more "modest" estimation.

Anyway, the £840M unit cost of T26, as of 2022, is (significantly) CHEAPER than the £800M figure announced in 2015. I think this is fact.
Yes but what is the real cost now or in five years how many times will BAE be back for more top ups like they have on the first batch?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:12And future helo's. And ally helo's. I'll bet that a Chinook deck can handle an Osprey.
Exactly.
Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:17 Are you expecting to fight them? Shades of Nelson & Drake.
European NATO should be able to look after the security of the continent without relying on help from the US.

We need to pull our weight especially in the maritime domain as do others.
Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:27 Where does the latest Arleigh Burke fit?
Comparing procurement costs between UK, US, Australia and etc is virtually impossible so it doesn’t fit.

However the UK needs an Arleigh Burke equivalent class to replace the T45’s IMO.

Keep it simple and build 8 specifically to escort the CSG. If required add as many T26’s to the CSG as needed. If more VLS are required network the T31 with their 32x Mk41 to provide additional strength in depth to the CSG. Any further funding should be committed to increasing SSN and P8 numbers rather than starting an unnecessary cruiser program.
But the carriers need the best escorts money can buy. Folks over here call them cruisers.
Remind me, what is the USN replacing The Tico’s with?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 20:30 rather than starting an unnecessary cruiser program.
So why does the UK need an Arleigh Burke equivalent then as by UK standards would it be a cruiser.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 20:30
Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:12And future helo's. And ally helo's. I'll bet that a Chinook deck can handle an Osprey.
Exactly.
Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:17 Are you expecting to fight them? Shades of Nelson & Drake.
European NATO should be able to look after the security of the continent without relying on help from the US.

We need to pull our weight especially in the maritime domain as do others.
Ron5 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 14:27 Where does the latest Arleigh Burke fit?
Comparing procurement costs between UK, US, Australia and etc is virtually impossible so it doesn’t fit.

However the UK needs an Arleigh Burke equivalent class to replace the T45’s IMO.

Keep it simple and build 8 specifically to escort the CSG. If required add as many T26’s to the CSG as needed. If more VLS are required network the T31 with their 32x Mk41 to provide additional strength in depth to the CSG. Any further funding should be committed to increasing SSN and P8 numbers rather than starting an unnecessary cruiser program.
But the carriers need the best escorts money can buy. Folks over here call them cruisers.
Remind me, what is the USN replacing The Tico’s with?
NATO Europe has

8 x SSBN
13 x SSN's
30 x SSK
3 x Carriers
1 Light Carrier
6 x LHD's
9 x LPD's
125 x Escorts
50 x Corvettes
60 x MCMV's
50 x OPV's

So a good lot to be getting on with

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 21:02 NATO Europe has….
How many of these countries can we actually rely on at five minutes to midnight?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 21:09
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 21:02 NATO Europe has….
How many of these countries can we actually rely on at five minutes to midnight?
All of the nato ones unless you think nato doesn’t work?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

SW1 wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 21:57 All of the nato ones unless you think nato doesn’t work?
NATO is an amazing deterrent.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by pko100 »

Seeing some of the earlier posts with reference to programme costs, you still need to careful when quoting NAO reported programme costs. NAO report against approved costs in business cases. So they could easily state that the programme cost has changed from £1.25b to £2b. This will be because additional activity has now been approved such as maturing the non equipment DLOD elements rather than a change in the production cost of the 5 ships. We will only know the actual production price of the Type 31s when all have been delivered and a post costing exercise has been undertaken.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 09 Jun 2023, 20:30 Remind me, what is the USN replacing The Tico’s with?
USN surface warship procurement is a total clusterF. Largely due to design skills atrophying because of building the same ship design for decades (AB's). You know, the sort of behavior as folks on this forum scream about producing T26's to satisfy the T83 need. Nothing like learning from somebody else's mistake!

There's a desire/need/requirement for a new destroyer and a new cruiser. The US seems incapable of providing in-house. The new frigate is coming from Italy of all places. Throws hands up in horror :o :o :o
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