Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
123
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
23
5%
A modernised Type 23
23
5%
A Type 26-lite
68
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
5%
5 hulls
67
14%
More than 5 hulls
97
20%
 
Total votes: 487

KiwiMuzz
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by KiwiMuzz »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:It’s no wonder HMG are pushing so hard at T31 export, with multiple UK built export T31’s the T32 budget line can be deferred almost indefinitely.

If building additional T26’s isn’t an option then jettisoning the RN T31’s onto the export market to be replaced by T32’s constructed in the early 2030’s seems like the obvious solution.
Are you sure :D that you are not a Treasury official, in a cloak (but not wielding a dagger)?
FFBNW a dagger. :P

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Type 32s to be “Weapons Class” ? HMS Dagger.as first of class ? :D

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Poiuytrewq wrote:It really depends on how fast you really believe Babcock could build 8 Frigates (T31) effectively starting from scratch.

Even if Babcock maximises efficiency it will take at least a decade before the steel can be cut on the T32’s. In real terms that results in the first T32 commissioning around 2034/2035. What if Babcock hoover up another three or four T31 Frigate orders over that decade? Would RN have to wait until 2040 for the first T32?.
What we know at this time is the last T-31 is due in the water in 2028 so as said if Rosyth built 1 export hull and 1 type 32 based on a A-140 side by side we could see the first T-32 in the water by 2030 with the last hitting the water in 2036 or 2038 depending on how many export ship are built at Rosyth

Now even if type 26 is let off the leash and can be built quicker BAE still have 6 and a half to build so I can't see them delivering T-32 any faster and then there is the possibility that if a BAE T-32 hits the sweet spot that it to could get exports that slow down RN delivery

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:It really depends on how fast you really believe Babcock could build 8 Frigates (T31) effectively starting from scratch.

Even if Babcock maximises efficiency it will take at least a decade before the steel can be cut on the T32’s. In real terms that results in the first T32 commissioning around 2034/2035. What if Babcock hoover up another three or four T31 Frigate orders over that decade? Would RN have to wait until 2040 for the first T32?.
What we know at this time is the last T-31 is due in the water in 2028 so as said if Rosyth built 1 export hull and 1 type 32 based on a A-140 side by side we could see the first T-32 in the water by 2030 with the last hitting the water in 2036 or 2038 depending on how many export ship are built at Rosyth

Now even if type 26 is let off the leash and can be built quicker BAE still have 6 and a half to build so I can't see them delivering T-32 any faster and then there is the possibility that if a BAE T-32 hits the sweet spot that it to could get exports that slow down RN delivery
BAES can also get support from other yards, like block build. I do not think speeding up the build rate from 2030 onward is so difficult. Why T31 build is fast is simply because it is a simple ship. If T32 be a simple ship, it could be built faster than T26, I guess.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:It really depends on how fast you really believe Babcock could build 8 Frigates (T31) effectively starting from scratch.

Even if Babcock maximises efficiency it will take at least a decade before the steel can be cut on the T32’s. In real terms that results in the first T32 commissioning around 2034/2035. What if Babcock hoover up another three or four T31 Frigate orders over that decade? Would RN have to wait until 2040 for the first T32?.
What we know at this time is the last T-31 is due in the water in 2028 so as said if Rosyth built 1 export hull and 1 type 32 based on a A-140 side by side we could see the first T-32 in the water by 2030 with the last hitting the water in 2036 or 2038 depending on how many export ship are built at Rosyth

Now even if type 26 is let off the leash and can be built quicker BAE still have 6 and a half to build so I can't see them delivering T-32 any faster and then there is the possibility that if a BAE T-32 hits the sweet spot that it to could get exports that slow down RN delivery
BAES can also get support from other yards, like block build. I do not think speeding up the build rate from 2030 onward is so difficult. Why T31 build is fast is simply because it is a simple ship. If T32 be a simple ship, it could be built faster than T26, I guess.
I agree but two things come in to play first if BAE can get help from other yards so can Babcocks and second if the other yards are already building blocks in support of the SSS program then it could limit the help ether could get. however the point is even if BAE were to build type 32 as said if it hits a sweet spot in the market it two could delay ships to the RN as BAE would have to fit them into the program and they have limited space as it is. And there is still a big bump in the road to come in Indy ref 2 if the Scots pull out then both will need to move there ship building South

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: If T32 be a simple ship, it could be built faster than T26, I guess
Absolutely but it’s unlikely to be as simple as the T31 and consequently it will take longer to build. How much longer? Who knows but adding an extra year per hull for added complexity would seem prudent.
Tempest414 wrote:if BAE can get help from other yards so can Babcocks and second if the other yards are already building blocks in support of the SSS program then it could limit the help ether could get
Good point but perhaps Navantia will be building the majority of the blocks and a UK yard will be simply assembling. It’s plausible either way.

Hopefully the NSBS will make things clearer but one thing is for sure, if Babcock actually manage to get some UK built export orders then the introduction of the T32’s will be delayed by years.

As the T32’s are due to escort the LRG’s any further delays are unacceptable or the T23GP’s will have to undergo another LIFEX. I suspect ungrading the T31’s to a proper escort spec would be a cheaper option than another costly T23 refit.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Wondering if Babcock have space for another Assembly Hall?

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

That thought did idly cross my mind as well !

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

bobp wrote:Wondering if Babcock have space for another Assembly Hall?
Surely if any further infrastructure is built it should be in an effort to increase efficiency at Govan/Scotstoun rather than Rosyth.

A 10% efficiency saving on the Clyde could build an extra T26 or two T31’s. Well worth it.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Poiuytrewq wrote:A 10% efficiency saving on the Clyde could build an extra T26 or two T31’s. Well worth it.
Not sure why BAe should be building T31's

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

bobp wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:A 10% efficiency saving on the Clyde could build an extra T26 or two T31’s. Well worth it.
Not sure why BAe should be building T31's
I was illustrating an equivalent of the amount that could be saved through greater efficiency, not suggesting BAE should start building T31’s.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

KiwiMuzz wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:It’s no wonder HMG are pushing so hard at T31 export, with multiple UK built export T31’s the T32 budget line can be deferred almost indefinitely.

If building additional T26’s isn’t an option then jettisoning the RN T31’s onto the export market to be replaced by T32’s constructed in the early 2030’s seems like the obvious solution.
Are you sure :D that you are not a Treasury official, in a cloak (but not wielding a dagger)?
FFBNW a dagger. :P
HMS Sheath

bobp
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Poiuytrewq wrote:I was illustrating an equivalent of the amount that could be saved through greater efficiency, not suggesting BAE should start building T31’s.
At one point BAe was going to build a Frigate factory but it got canned because of the reduction in orders and the stretching out of the build process by HM government.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

bobp wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:I was illustrating an equivalent of the amount that could be saved through greater efficiency, not suggesting BAE should start building T31’s.
At one point BAe was going to build a Frigate factory but it got canned because of the reduction in orders and the stretching out of the build process by HM government.
The Treasury refused to fund it.

Don't forget the T26 contract is under single source rules which means open books with the Treasury able to nix any line items they don't like.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

bobp wrote:Wondering if Babcock have space for another Assembly Hall?
Build 18 or the MCMV refit hall looks to be about 100 x 80 meters so if needs be they could build block in there and put them together out side the same as BAE do with type 26 or build the block in building 18 fit them together in the new hall and then float the ship for finale fit out could speed thing up a bit

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

Ron5 wrote:
bobp wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:I was illustrating an equivalent of the amount that could be saved through greater efficiency, not suggesting BAE should start building T31’s.
At one point BAe was going to build a Frigate factory but it got canned because of the reduction in orders and the stretching out of the build process by HM government.
The Treasury refused to fund it.

Don't forget the T26 contract is under single source rules which means open books with the Treasury able to nix any line items they don't like.
Silly decision IMHO and speaks volumes about the short sightedness of SW1. Would have cost about 5% of RBS. <end rant>

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

Who’s funding the frigate factory at Rosyth?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote: The Treasury refused to fund it.
Quite, so the company funds only stretched for half (due to the slow order rate) of the planned expenditure.
SD67 wrote:Silly decision IMHO
Yes, but :D ...
The RR is being funded for their nuclear Derby facility renewal, also a private facility.
BUT this facility falls within the few (well-defined) sovereign capability areas; which building complex warships in a (potentially :idea: ) foreign country does not

Australia can afford to build ship yards as part of their order for a new class of ships?
Again, falls within a defined sovereign capability area. And the BUT in this case is: the final ownership will rest with the investor (the gvmnt), just like is the case with the US tank factory... the latter not so visible as there has not been a production switch since the Abrams order was granted ( and any such unlikely to happen before '30s/ 40s, if even then)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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tomuk
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote: The Treasury refused to fund it.
Quite, so the company funds only stretched for half (due to the slow order rate) of the planned expenditure.
SD67 wrote:Silly decision IMHO
Yes, but :D ...
The RR is being funded for their nuclear Derby facility renewal, also a private facility.
BUT this facility falls within the few (well-defined) sovereign capability areas; which building complex warships in a (potentially :idea: ) foreign country does not

Australia can afford to build ship yards as part of their order for a new class of ships?
Again, falls within a defined sovereign capability area. And the BUT in this case is: the final ownership will rest with the investor (the gvmnt), just like is the case with the US tank factory... the latter not so visible as there has not been a production switch since the Abrams order was granted ( and any such unlikely to happen before '30s/ 40s, if even then)
Plus local politics didn't help, the optimal plan was to close Govan and build the frigate factory at Scotstoun. Who is the MSP for Govan? Non other than a certain Nicola Sturgeon.

Additionally building a frigate factory that can produce the frigates at a faster rate than you can afford to buy them would also be illogical.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

And just how does the same personage manage to NATIONALISE another (loss making) shipyard (Ferguson, IIRC).. Nationalisation should ONLY be possible from the NATIONAL Government ! :mrgreen:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

It would interesting which yards the SNP would close after independence as they could not keep more than one

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

SW1 wrote:Who’s funding the frigate factory at Rosyth?
Babcock's is free to spend any of its 1.25 billion on anything it so chooses without any Treasury oversight. Different rules than Bae is operating under.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Ron5 wrote: The Treasury refused to fund it.
Quite, so the company funds only stretched for half (due to the slow order rate) of the planned expenditure.
SD67 wrote:Silly decision IMHO
Yes, but :D ...
The RR is being funded for their nuclear Derby facility renewal, also a private facility.
BUT this facility falls within the few (well-defined) sovereign capability areas; which building complex warships in a (potentially :idea: ) foreign country does not

Australia can afford to build ship yards as part of their order for a new class of ships?
Again, falls within a defined sovereign capability area. And the BUT in this case is: the final ownership will rest with the investor (the gvmnt), just like is the case with the US tank factory... the latter not so visible as there has not been a production switch since the Abrams order was granted ( and any such unlikely to happen before '30s/ 40s, if even then)
Not quite understanding your point here.

Bae did spend on improving facilities as part of the Type 26 contract. Just not up to the level of a frigate factory. Those expenditures were approved by the Treasury as part of their open books oversight. Bae owns them.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Ron5 wrote:Bae did spend on improving facilities as part of the Type 26 contract. Just not up to the level of a frigate factory.
50% is not quite what it could/ should have been
... been giving 'you' - no, everyone that is :lol: - some conditions that may have been operating in the margins (and @tomuk did add to the list)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Digger22
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Make hay while the sun shines. Building T31 to a steady drumbeat, drives down cost, further improving export Potential?

Build T32 at Portsmouth.

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