Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Of the 12 T23, by my reckoning 9 of them have completed LIFEX and 3 are currently undergoing LIFEX. So if we fitted Harpoon upgrade kit to those 3 ships, that should firstly minimise time out of active service, and secondly would presumably have the longest remaining service life of these remaining 12 ships.

Then as first priority 1 set of 8 could be fitted to all of the T45 (ideally when undergoing PIP so again minimise time out of active service) and all of T26 (as the T23's get retired). These 14 ships are going to be the warfighting escorts optimised for high intensity operations against peer opponents.

Sure it would be nice if the T31 and T32 could also each have 1 set of 8 apiece, but this IMO would be lower priority as it seems these ships are intended more general purpose roles, often forward deployed to more medium intensity operations. Plus the T32's have nt even been ordered or costs budgeted for yet, lt alone their exact role and purpose fully defined.

So I would prefer that RN prioritise 14 sets of 8 initially and then maybe a second order of 5-10 sets of 8 down the line.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

The RN is committed to FC/ASW, which is supposed to be compatible with Mk-41 VLS… T26 (for sure) and T32 (probably) will have those, and T31 is FFBNW… any interim canister-launched ASM would probably only be installed on a few T23 and on T45… if the ones on T23 were transferred to T31 later, it wouldn’t be necessary to install MK-41…

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

JohnM wrote: 09 Apr 2022, 16:16 The RN is committed to FC/ASW, which is supposed to be compatible with Mk-41 VLS… T26 (for sure) and T32 (probably) will have those, and T31 is FFBNW… any interim canister-launched ASM would probably only be installed on a few T23 and on T45… if the ones on T23 were transferred to T31 later, it wouldn’t be necessary to install MK-41…
The Harpoon Canisters are less flexible than Mk41 VLS due to the latter's flexibility of potential missiles able to be carried, especially if nough pace is left to accomodate future larger missiles. The more RN ships that can be fitted with Mk41 VLS, the better.

If Mk41 can field missiles for land attack / ASuW / ASW / AAW / BMD then gives greater ability to tailor missiles for specific mission. But that is more of a long term goal, epecially once RN decided not to fit Mk41 VLS to T45. And as you said T31 are currently FFBNW. So in the short term it would be good if the RN can get some interim land attack / ASuW capability from it's escorts. At the moment the lowest cost for such an interim capability appears to be upgrade kits for both Tomahawk and Harpoon.

For me FC/ASW is still in "jam tomorrow" future capability. We don't yet know whether it will be going down the stealthy but sub-sonic route or hypersonic non-stealthy route, or both.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Yes the Mk41 does give a Warship the capability to fire a considerable variety of munitions, but he number available of planned RN warships is limited at present, twenty four on the T-26 and possibly eight on the T-31. Having a canister launched AShM would free up VLS cells that could be used for other missions of which there are many. The Canadians seem to be fitting an additional eight Mk41 VLS cells to their T-26 derivative and yet still plan to install eight or more canister launched AShM. I believe the RAN might be doing the same and the USN's new Constellation cladd Escorts will also have up to sixteen cannisters in addition to the Mk41 VLS.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

From where we are now I would like to see type 31 end up with 24 CAMM , 16 VLS and 8 or 16 NSM would make it a good ship

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

10th April write up on Poland’s AH140PL Frigate by Naval News, of interest mentions 7,000t ship, RN quotes the T31 OPV as 5,600t :roll:, re the image as posted above shows other highlights, four panel SM-400 GaN AESA S-band VSR with NS50 GaN X-band rotating MFCR on top plus mention of a sonar, 16 RBS-15 mk3/mk4 anti-ship missiles, 32 VLS cells, CAMM etc

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... k-frigate/

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Cooper »

NickC wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 09:00 10th April write up on Poland’s AH140PL Frigate by Naval News, of interest mentions 7,000t ship, RN quotes the T31 OPV as 5,600t :roll:, re the image as posted above shows other highlights, four panel SM-400 GaN AESA S-band VSR with NS50 GaN X-band rotating MFCR on top plus mention of a sonar, 16 RBS-15 mk3/mk4 anti-ship missiles, 32 VLS cells, CAMM etc

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... k-frigate/
It makes sense that Poland arms these ships to the maximum degree possible given that they will be Polands main naval asset & strike capability.

..That's not the case with the RN versions.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Cooper wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 09:29 That's not the case with the RN versions.
Thats true but they should be armed to the same standard as the vessels they are replacing - the T23GPs.

The argument that the T23 class were conceived during the Cold War and the world is a much less dangerous place now does not really stand up to scrutiny anymore.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Cooper »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 09:41
Cooper wrote: 12 Apr 2022, 09:29 That's not the case with the RN versions.
Thats true but they should be armed to the same standard as the vessels they are replacing - the T23GPs.

The argument that the T23 class were conceived during the Cold War and the world is a much less dangerous place now does not really stand up to scrutiny anymore.
You'll get no argument from me that the T-31s could do with more punch but spending an extra £50-100m on those weapons for each ship, soon adds up and makes cuts elsewhere necessary. I suspect the T-32s will get the extra weaponry as by then the T-26 cash sponge will be largely spent, freeing up funds for other stuff like extra weaponry, back fitted to T-31s as well.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

I must admit I can see the T-31 and T-32 morphing into a single class of two batches, with the first being less capable that the following Batch two but being brought up to that standard during first major maintenance period. I can see this including additional Sea Ceptor, the installation of one or more Mk41 VLS and the ability to mount a "Tail", if needed.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Poiyutrewq wrote:
The argument that the T23 class were conceived during the Cold War and the world is a much less dangerous place now does not really stand up to scrutiny anymore
It never did. It was merely a triumph of optimism over reality, that had politicians jumping. On the bandwagon and making an almost inevitable outcome into a guaranteed one.

Despite all the evidence to the contrary …………. They are still at it now!
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

A whole family of Fife-based Bobs laying the keel for HMS Venturer:



https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... tes-begins

Image
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Interesting image. Harpoon mounted on the front of the weapons deck and a T26 style composite radio mast on the rear stub mast.

Also in this video at the end where is the T31 being launched Rosyth, Leith or Devonport?

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RN official page is interesting.
see https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... tes-begins

Each ship is equipped with three Pacific 24 boats , – crucial for board-and-search/counter narcotics work – a 57mm gun and two 40mm secondary guns, Sea Ceptor air defence missiles – also fitted to Type 23 and 26 frigates – with off-the-shelf sensors and computer systems.

And the flight deck can host helicopters up to the size of a Chinook, although more typically Royal Navy Merlins and Wildcats.

A typical crew will be just over 100, but with space – notably for Royal Marine detachments – for up to 187 personnel on board.


So,
- Three RHIBs are official, not four. Question resolved.
- flight deck Chinook capable (which means Absalon and Iver Huitfeldt are also capable of it)
- crew just over 100, and accommodation up to 187, I think means ~120 crew (with Helicopter flight) and still can carry 60-70 RMs.

T45 has an accommodation upto 285 with 191 complement (probably, only core = without flight).
T26 accommodation for 207 with 157 core complement (ref BAE page),
and River B2 36 core crew (58 in rotation) with 50 troops' accommodation.

P.S. Looks like RN can carry 16 platoons of troops on T45, T31 and River B2s, and 4 platoons on 8 T26s. Of course, at most 1/3 of them can be deployed, but it is 8 platoons. If there are ways to transfer heavy equipment, fairly good amount of troops?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

"The Arrowhead140PL is equipped with a 32-cell VLS, and according to a March 4 announcement, MBDA will equip the Sea Ceptor air defence system with CAMM family missiles. Considering that one cell can hold four CAMM missiles, the maximum load of the VLS will be 128 CAMM missiles"

That sounds useful
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

SD67 wrote: 27 Apr 2022, 08:22 "The Arrowhead140PL is equipped with a 32-cell VLS, and according to a March 4 announcement, MBDA will equip the Sea Ceptor air defence system with CAMM family missiles. Considering that one cell can hold four CAMM missiles, the maximum load of the VLS will be 128 CAMM missiles"

That sounds useful
Understand agreement has been reached between MBDA UK and Poland to license manufacture CAMM for their new Narew short range AAW system, they plan 23 batteries for their Air Force, Army and Navy (to be used in the A140PL-Miecznik frigates). MBDA Italy also in a campaign to supply CAMM-ER/Albatros NG to Poland (and Turkey). Poland using iLauncher Polish Jelcz trucks, Zspsr Sola 3D radar and C2 system (Sky Sabre uses MAN trucks, Saab Giraffe AMB radar and Rafaell MIC4AD C2 system).

PS Poland purchased Patriot for $4.8 billion in 2018, first batteries to be del'd this year.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

A lot of talk about type 31 on the type 26 thread so moved over here

For me the the way forward is the Type 31 should get 24 CAMM and 16 Mk-41 and then type 32 should come on line with 1 x 127mm , 2 x 40mm & 32 Mk-41 we should then buy 6 containerized sonar systems each given its own crew these sonars could be used by the type 31 , 32 and the B2's as needed
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Just a single 6 cell Mk41 of standard length would so. using ExLS Quad Pack Canisters you could install 32 Sea Ceptor or 24 of these plus 8 Sea Spear. Fit infrastructure to allow four to eight NSM canisters to be installed and you have a decent load out for a second tier MP Frigate. Adding a HMS would be the icing on the cake so to speak.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Well we seem to be buy the full monty version of the 57mm so as the article says it will be interesting to see what ammunition we purchase, and in what quantity. What we choose will greatly affect the effectiveness of the T-31. MAD-FIRES is the one I hope we do seriously look at and possibly adopt.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by leonard »

And for the series "What could have been " I found the design configuration that was proposed to the Hellenic Navy .I don't know if this was posted before but you can clearly see the fact that Royal Navy Type 31 is very very light armed. Again my compliments to the artists .
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

The HN v2 looks to be extremely well balanced, the T31 not so much….

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Dobbo »

Sounds like they are looking at upgrade options…

Adding between 16-32 MK41 feels like a no-brainer (absent cost) to me.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

leonard wrote: 19 May 2022, 00:12 And for the series "What could have been " I found the design configuration that was proposed to the Hellenic Navy .I don't know if this was posted before but you can clearly see the fact that Royal Navy Type 31 is very very light armed. Again my compliments to the artists .
I don’t think that’s what was proposed, They still have €2B to spend on corvettes/frigates after buying the 3 FDI and this was just speculation on the part of the author on what could be the configuration IF the weapons from the old Kortnaers they still have were reused in the AH140 design to reduce cost and allow frigates to be bought instead of corvettes. For example, notice the ESSM launchers are not VLS, but the ones currently on the Kortnaers, albeit updated.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

UK and Denmark strike deal to bring T31 into service............

https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... es-3702654
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