Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
102
20%
 
Total votes: 505

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 23:57
Ron5 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:30 The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
Short of secretly building another three, I find it such a large sum I'm not sure it can be explained with mere gold plating. Considering neither RBS-15 nor a TAS are included

The original estimate at c.€1.85bn seems far more in line with what you'd expect from ships 9-11 of an established design that's being enhanced for Polish requirements.

I'm guessing there's a lot of something being bundled in.
We don't know that those items are not included in the contract.

However, we do know that Polish shipbuilding is significantly cheaper than UK.

I doubt very much that anything unrelated to the frigates are included in the contract.

Maybe just Thales price gouging.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by new guy »

Jdam wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:47
new guy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:09 Most current and accurate model of T31
It doesn't look like anything has changed.
I mean that every model before has been to demonstrate AH140, thus no model has been an accurate depiction of T31 spec, I don't suggest anything has changed.
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Jensy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 13:50
Jensy wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 23:57
Ron5 wrote: 28 Dec 2023, 14:30 The Polish order at 3 billion for 3 is an interesting comparison for the UK order of 2 billion for 5. Seems none of the British selected sensors and weapons are good enough for the Poles. Maybe they want something more than embassy parties and a few dead pirates.
Short of secretly building another three, I find it such a large sum I'm not sure it can be explained with mere gold plating. Considering neither RBS-15 nor a TAS are included

The original estimate at c.€1.85bn seems far more in line with what you'd expect from ships 9-11 of an established design that's being enhanced for Polish requirements.

I'm guessing there's a lot of something being bundled in.
We don't know that those items are not included in the contract.

However, we do know that Polish shipbuilding is significantly cheaper than UK.

I doubt very much that anything unrelated to the frigates are included in the contract.

Maybe just Thales price gouging.
True enough, can only make assumptions based upon Naval News as a reliable source of information/speculation.

The two "related" areas that came to mind:

The shipyard at Gdynia has a long albeit recently troubled history. Currently undergoing a massive modernisation programme.

Vast CAMM stocks and possibly additional CAMM-ER in addition to their ground force's purchase?

Even assuming generous contributions to both it still seems high.

As for Thales, I still would have preferred Artisan for our ships, but that's a separate matter....

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jensy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 17:04 Vast CAMM stocks and possibly additional CAMM-ER in addition to their ground force's purchase?
The article said the contract specifically excluded missiles.
Jensy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 17:04 The shipyard at Gdynia has a long albeit recently troubled history. Currently undergoing a massive modernisation programme.
Babcock's had to construct a Type 31 build capability from scratch at Rosyth. It didn't cost much. I seem to remember 50 mill but my memory is faulty.
Jensy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 17:04 As for Thales, I still would have preferred Artisan for our ships, but that's a separate matter....
I wonder how Artisan compares with the Polish chosen Sea Master SM410 & NS50 combo.

More interestingly, for me at least, the article implies ExLs is capable of operating CAMM-ER. This the first time I've seen that.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

new guy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 15:46
Jdam wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:47
new guy wrote: 29 Dec 2023, 11:09 Most current and accurate model of T31
It doesn't look like anything has changed.
I mean that every model before has been to demonstrate AH140, thus no model has been an accurate depiction of T31 spec, I don't suggest anything has changed.
I don't think Babcock's has refreshed their model since day 1. I don't know why they would.

But they have commissioned a new model for AH140 MNP. Which is very tasty, I must admit.

Image

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

EDR have made a translation of the annex to the contract related to the design and delivery of the three Polish Miecznik class multi-role frigates, what caught my eye is in the basic unit data there is mention of additional plating, anyone know why the additional plating required?

PS Fincantieri as part of their bid for the USN FFG(X) carried out tank testing trials of the Italian FREMM model hull at USN NSWC Carderock and found they needed to stiffen the bending moment of the hull and had to add steel, in total they added 300t for the stiffening, increased survivability, take a combatant hit and improved the sea keeping for Constellation.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/a-sharp-swor ... e-frigates

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

NickC wrote: 02 Jan 2024, 11:06 EDR have made a translation of the annex to the contract related to the design and delivery of the three Polish Miecznik class multi-role frigates, what caught my eye is in the basic unit data there is mention of additional plating, anyone know why the additional plating required?

PS Fincantieri as part of their bid for the USN FFG(X) carried out tank testing trials of the Italian FREMM model hull at USN NSWC Carderock and found they needed to stiffen the bending moment of the hull and had to add steel, in total they added 300t for the stiffening, increased survivability, take a combatant hit and improved the sea keeping for Constellation.

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/a-sharp-swor ... e-frigates
The additional structure in the Constellation class was for the design to meet US Navy standards which are more demanding than for the European navies. A fact, by the way, which is frequently denied on this forum.

Additional plating would not add strength etc because these days, the "skin" of the ship makes very little contribution. My guess is that this addition is mostly for the larger mast required by the new radars.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

If my memory not playing me false from what little i can remember of my structural engineering classes the size/thickness of the plating can add substantial strength to a structure.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

NickC wrote: 02 Jan 2024, 17:19 If my memory not playing me false from what little i can remember of my structural engineering classes the size/thickness of the plating can add substantial strength to a structure.
Modern warship "skin" is relatively thin which gives rise to the starved dog look. Its function is mostly to keep out wind and water.
Image
Image

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Nice pics.

The USN with their Burkes have over the years have increased the hull plating thickness, with the Flight IIA the lower hull plating thickness was increased over 3/4 the hull length amidships, though have not seen the rationale and with the Flight III they widened the stern above the waterline and further strengthened the hull with the thicker plating and scantlings towards the stern, the driver was to bring the centre of gravity back down after fitting the top heavier SPY-6, but also said to bring the advantage of creating a more survivable hull in the event of an underwater explosion.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by serge750 »

Ron5 wrote: 03 Jan 2024, 13:35
NickC wrote: 02 Jan 2024, 17:19 If my memory not playing me false from what little i can remember of my structural engineering classes the size/thickness of the plating can add substantial strength to a structure.
Modern warship "skin" is relatively thin which gives rise to the starved dog look. Its function is mostly to keep out wind and water.
Image
Image
Always seem more noticiable on RN ships for some strange reason.......
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Seems that way but not entirely absent in other navies:

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

The main reason for thin plating that buckles so unattractively is to save weight which has knock on effects in saving money. My understanding is that the worst examples of buckling are fixed at the end of construction.

I can think of three reasons for thicker plating: appearance, ice protection & small arms/shrapnel protection. I'm sure there's more but that's all I could come up with.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ianmb17 »

MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Part of why this frigate program is budgeted to be an average of over a billion each.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Great info. As RN has not ordered Mk41 in any sense by now, this means the T31 of RN will be (at least) at the first step be delivered WITHOUT Mk.41 VLS (which is clear from schedule point of view).

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 13:30
Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Great info. As RN has not ordered Mk41 in any sense by now, this means the T31 of RN will be (at least) at the first step be delivered WITHOUT Mk.41 VLS (which is clear from schedule point of view).
Didn't we already know that any capability insertion would be after Babcock's handover to the RN?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ron5 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 13:46
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 13:30
Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Great info. As RN has not ordered Mk41 in any sense by now, this means the T31 of RN will be (at least) at the first step be delivered WITHOUT Mk.41 VLS (which is clear from schedule point of view).
Didn't we already know that any capability insertion would be after Babcock's handover to the RN?
What I guess is
- the first T31 be delivered to RN on early 2027, BUT NOT steam even a meter
- just it directly goes into "capability insertion period" for an year (with 24 CAMM and ESM/ECM)
(actually, only here the build ends)
- then the first of class ship trial starts on early 2028, and IOC on late 2029.
We need her to replace KIPION T23GP.

Adding Mk.41 to her will take her out of service for another 2 years. It must come only near the mid-life, or at least, after 5-6 years and long maintenance commences. So, for me, Mk.41 VLS for T31 must come only around 2035-36 (when all the T26 has already been delivered). Just guess.
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

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Progress on the bridge equipment for HMS Venturer....

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Chris Werb »

Given that a major likely, local adversary has submarines and that armed underwater drones are becoming a thing, should T31 not now have a sonar (other than the one associated with its torpedo defence system)?
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 13:30
Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Great info. As RN has not ordered Mk41 in any sense by now, this means the T31 of RN will be (at least) at the first step be delivered WITHOUT Mk.41 VLS (which is clear from schedule point of view).
So the Polish Swordfish program is buying BOTH Mk41 VLS and ExLS.

Agreed that RN T31 (as is) is NOT getting Mk41 VLS.

And I agree with those on forum who question whether RN should fit Mk41 VLS to RN T31 even at a later dste. One of T31's benefits is that they are (comparatively) cheap to build and cheap to man in terms if crew requirements. Happy to give the T31's some of more cheaper, simpler upgrades such as sonar (even if just containerised VDS, NSM Canisters and increased CAMM).

The bit I am still not clear on is whether the RN has gone for ExLS on T31 as part of any further additional spending on Capability Insertion Phase in between launch and commissioning.

I am unsure what the £55m previously announced CIP is but I assume that unlikely to be for any form of VLS.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-awa ... ancements/
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 18:21
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 13:30
Ianmb17 wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 06:56 MK 41 vertical launch system along with ExLS (Exstensible Launching System)

https://apple.news/A2eA4cRzqSeCDcY7bh_u8ug
Great info. As RN has not ordered Mk41 in any sense by now, this means the T31 of RN will be (at least) at the first step be delivered WITHOUT Mk.41 VLS (which is clear from schedule point of view).
So the Polish Swordfish program is buying BOTH Mk41 VLS and ExLS.

Agreed that RN T31 (as is) is NOT getting Mk41 VLS.

And I agree with those on forum who question whether RN should fit Mk41 VLS to RN T31 even at a later dste. One of T31's benefits is that they are (comparatively) cheap to build and cheap to man in terms if crew requirements. Happy to give the T31's some of more cheaper, simpler upgrades such as sonar (even if just containerised VDS, NSM Canisters and increased CAMM).

The bit I am still not clear on is whether the RN has gone for ExLS on T31 as part of any further additional spending on Capability Insertion Phase in between launch and commissioning.

I am unsure what the £55m previously announced CIP is but I assume that unlikely to be for any form of VLS.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-awa ... ancements/
Fitting Mk-41 will not effect the crew size one bit the IH class has 32 MK-41 and 56 VLS in total and has a crew of 120 where as fitting a sonar could add to manning as this would need a team of special operators

We have a choice for me the way to go is to fit Type 31 with 40 CAMM in place of the 32 MK-41 and then add 8 to 16 NSM this along with its current gun , sencor and SSTD system fit plus Wildcat would be a great ship for the RN

For me the top of line type 31 should be fitted with 20 CAMM-MR and 16 MK-41 in place of the 32 MK-41 remove the forward 40mm and replace with 20 more CAMM and add 8 to 16 NSM

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Re above Naval News 1st Feb write up on the keel laying of the first approx 7,000t Miecznik (Swordfish) the Polish variant of the Arrowhead 140/T31 design.

As mentioned CAMM will be installed on board with a quadpacking solution in Lockheed Martin’s Mk41 VLS (with ExLS Host) enabling a high load-out and will be ditching the Bofors 57mm in favour the OTO 76/62 Super Rapid naval guns with the Strales package (for guided air defence ammunition DART) and new multiple-feeding ammunition loading system

PS Greece has officially expressed an interest in building 7 Constellation frigates, rumoured to be a lower displacement variant, but even so also ditching the light Bofors 57mm in favour of a larger 76 or 127mm main gun, even though they will be acquiring 4 of the USN LCS Freedom class that come with the Bofors 57mm).

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... s-frigate/

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 14:04 the first T31 be delivered to RN on early 2027, BUT NOT steam even a meter
You may be correct but I would think the Navy would like to test out the ship and its systems while its still under warranty before mucking things about by adding new kit. Maybe add new capability during the same docking time all the defects found from testing are fixed.

Anyhoo, hope we find out relatively soon. Ships are already over budget and behind schedule.

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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 02 Feb 2024, 18:21 I am unsure what the £55m previously announced CIP is but I assume that unlikely to be for any form of VLS.
I may be a little too cynical, but when Babcock's came asking for more money to help them with inflation & supply chain problems, the stern responsible MoD said no, "you signed a fixed price contract, suck it up". Politicians applauded loudly "that's how you handle procurement".

Then a little while later Babcock's gets a 55 million contract for unspecified stuff. Hmmm.

Reminds me of the bodge when both Babcock's and Bae told the MoD that the 250 million per Type 31 wasn't enough. So the stern reposponsible MoD said "that's the budget, suck it up". Politicians applauded loudly "that's how you handle procurement".

Then a little later we learned that the cost of Sea Ceptor had been removed from the 250 million and the bill sent separately to the MoD.

Sir Humphrey would be proud. And yes, that show was and is popular in the US. Shown on PBC at no cost to the US tax payers.
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