Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
52
10%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
14
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
127
25%
An LCS-like modular ship
22
4%
A modernised Type 23
24
5%
A Type 26-lite
71
14%
Less than 5 hulls
22
4%
5 hulls
71
14%
More than 5 hulls
103
20%
 
Total votes: 506

NickC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Ron5 wrote:The Swedish guns are cheaper. They are manufactured in the US to support US goals that have nothing to do with the UK.
Any source you can quote to say Swedish guns are cheaper, would have thought the opposite due to their high wage/social cost economy and US manufactured ~ 45 to date for the LCS and NPC with another future possible ~45 for the Constellation and the OPC. Very unlikely BAE will or have disclosed the respective cost figures for Sweden and US, think the reason the guns might be sourced from Sweden is that given by tomuk
tomuk wrote:As the T31 is for export if I was Babcock I would keep well away from any ITAR/FMS issues.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

First Sea Lord has just told Defence Committee that Type 31 is fitted for Mk41 launchers and there is currently "debate" about whether it will carry a surface-to-surface missile system.

SW1
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by SW1 »

After being assured on here this wasn’t the case the first sea lord thinks different


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Jensy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

RichardIC wrote:First Sea Lord has just told Defence Committee that Type 31 is fitted for Mk41 launchers and there is currently "debate" about whether it will carry a surface-to-surface missile system.
Just been watching and was interested to hear it repeated later on. Suggests it's not an accidental verbal slip.

Found this particularly interesting in the context of the Interim anti-ship missile debate from earlier in the session.

Jeremey Quin talking of fitting Mk41 to Type 32 and Type 83 as well.

Other stuff on TLAM and FC/ASW which is probably more suited to the missile thread.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

RichardIC wrote:First Sea Lord has just told Defence Committee that Type 31 is fitted for Mk41 launchers and there is currently "debate" about whether it will carry a surface-to-surface missile system.
So we now know that type 31 is FFBNW Mk-41 VLS and that there is a open debate on how many CAMM will be fitted and the fitting of SSGW

plus the navy would put Type 31 in harms way

Jdam
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

What does "fitted for but not with" really mean, are they saying there room for the Mk41?

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

I would say for the RN to say FFBNW means bit more than the builder saying there is space for it i.e a dedicated space with power and comms

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Jdam wrote:What does "fitted for but not with" really mean, are they saying there room for the Mk41?
He's saying the Type 31 is specifically designed to accommodate Mk41 which is something that wasn't in the public domain until today.

tomuk
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

RichardIC wrote:
Jdam wrote:What does "fitted for but not with" really mean, are they saying there room for the Mk41?
He's saying the Type 31 is specifically designed to accommodate Mk41 which is something that wasn't in the public domain until today.
I think it is a valid question. Based on the currently available renders the space for Mk41 is no longer there because it is taken up by the extra boat bay(s) and possibly CAMM . Is it valid to say its FFBNW if Babcock have just capped off the electrical, pneumatic and water supply lines at the nearest bulkhead and Thales have left the code in the CMS but you need to cut a big hole in the deck and build a compartment for the Mk41 to fit in rendering the boat bay(s) useless.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Maybe the current location for Sea Ceptor is actually a bigger bay just covered over, and it could take between two and four Mk41s?

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Jensy
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

tomuk wrote:Based on the currently available renders the space for Mk41 is no longer there because it is taken up by the extra boat bay(s) and possibly CAMM .
It's the CAMM cells that are in the way. The boat bays are replacing what were the Mk.56 VLS, for ESSM, on the Iver Huitfeldts.

Image

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

If you concentrate on the space the four Mk41 VLS take up and take into account that the Mk41 is available in sizes one to eight cells these days, fitting between twenty four and thirty six cells where Sea Ceptor is installed might be feasible. Sea Ceptor of course would have then to be quad packed in the MK41 cells.

dmereifield
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

I think the RN intends them to be a bit more fighty than the glorified OPV that some on here seem to suggest they'll be. The comments would also indicate they the RN will use them as such, too

JohnM
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

You’re complicating things too much… all this was already known… The official AH 140 brochure shows all the boat bays and room for 4x8 MK-41 and they specifically mention room for 32 cells…

https://www.arrowhead140.com/wp-content ... ochure.pdf

In my mind what The 1SL confirmed is that all the wiring and software will be in place for a future upgrade if they chose to do so…

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

The biggest reveal was that there are plans to make the T-31 more "Spiky". Also the option for the T-32 to be an evolved T-31, and that mine warfare using USV that would be controlled from the shore of from a vessel like the MRSS, (no mention of the T-32) was also interesting

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

From Jensy's photo above, it looks as if 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM (in the new 6-tube launchers) would be possible, while retaining the boat bays. That would be a pretty flexible layout.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Caribbean wrote:From Jensy's photo above, it looks as if 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM (in the new 6-tube launchers) would be possible, while retaining the boat bays. That would be a pretty flexible layout.
That would be a fantastic layout for the T31.

If the physical infrastructure and CMS provisions are included at build why not just fit the Mk41’s? The costs really shouldn’t be prohibitive if everything else is being added anyway.

Surely RN has learned the lessons of FFBNW with the T45’s.

KiwiMuzz
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by KiwiMuzz »

Caribbean wrote:From Jensy's photo above, it looks as if 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM (in the new 6-tube launchers) would be possible, while retaining the boat bays. That would be a pretty flexible layout.
Just keep the 32x Mk41 as per the picture. Use eight for quad-CAMM, leaving twenty-four for land attack and still room for eight SSM.

Scimitar54
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Remember that initial costs (and therefore build costs) have been “capped”, so such changes would have to occur “post build”. :thumbup:

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

KiwiMuzz wrote:Just keep the 32x Mk41 as per the picture. Use eight for quad-CAMM, leaving twenty-four for land attack and still room for eight SSM.
That would be the ideal, but as Scimitar notes, the initial budget is fixed, so I would prefer to see them built with 24 CAMM, with the 16 Mk41 to follow as the "post build" Class upgrade, particularly as the "quad-packing" element is an unknown additional cost at the moment - the cost MIGHT be trivial, but somehow I doubt it, as no-one seems to have adopted it yet!
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

KiwiMuzz
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by KiwiMuzz »

Scimitar54 wrote:Remember that initial costs (and therefore build costs) have been “capped”, so such changes would have to occur “post build”. :thumbup:
Oh, absolutely. What I believe will actually happen is that funds to up-gun T31 will be deferred to up-gun T32, jam tomorrow. Then funds to up-gun T32 will be deferred to up-gun T83, more jam. Ad infinitum. Pardon my cynicism, but this just keeps on happening.

Repulse
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

dmereifield wrote:I think the RN intends them to be a bit more fighty than the glorified OPV that some on here seem to suggest they'll be. The comments would also indicate they the RN will use them as such, too
Not withstanding KiwiMuzz's valid cynicism, assuming the funds are there and do not result in higher priority cuts elsewhere then I would support a larger warfighting escort force.

However, adding MK41s by themselves do not make them the required standard, unless done properly it just makes them a bigger target. The biggest weakness remains below the water - until a real hull sonar (and possibly TAS) and ASW countermeasures are included then it would be criminal to put them in harms way against a peer (or even near peer) nation.

Also, the 1st Sea Lord also commented on the usefulness of the mission bay on the (Global Combat Ship) T26. I still cannot help but believe that the T31/T32 would be best focused replacing the T26 in the CSG Escort and TAPS role, giving them a freehand to be deployed as the operational situation dictates.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

Caribbean wrote:From Jensy's photo above, it looks as if 16 Mk41 and 24 CAMM (in the new 6-tube launchers) would be possible, while retaining the boat bays. That would be a pretty flexible layout.
For me right now I would happy for Type 31 to have 24 CAMM , 1 x 8 cell Mk-41 and a good HMS .

KiwiMuzz
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by KiwiMuzz »

Repulse wrote:
dmereifield wrote:I think the RN intends them to be a bit more fighty than the glorified OPV that some on here seem to suggest they'll be. The comments would also indicate they the RN will use them as such, too
Not withstanding KiwiMuzz's valid cynicism, assuming the funds are there and do not result in higher priority cuts elsewhere then I would support a larger warfighting escort force.

However, adding MK41s by themselves do not make them the required standard, unless done properly it just makes them a bigger target. The biggest weakness remains below the water - until a real hull sonar (and possibly TAS) and ASW countermeasures are included then it would be criminal to put them in harms way against a peer (or even near peer) nation.

Also, the 1st Sea Lord also commented on the usefulness of the mission bay on the (Global Combat Ship) T26. I still cannot help but believe that the T31/T32 would be best focused replacing the T26 in the CSG Escort and TAPS role, giving them a freehand to be deployed as the operational situation dictates.
My only concern with that option is whether the T31/32 will have the same level of noise reduction as T26 for the specialised A/S role.

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Tempest414
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Re: Type 31 Frigate (Inspiration Class) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

As I said 2 years ago type 31 should have been a 125 x 15 meter Carrier group only ASW frigate freeing up the Type 26 Global combat ships to do that role and had we stated with a 2 to 2.5 billion pound program and not 1.25 billion we could have got there

What is interesting is the RN has pushed Type 31 from a 120 meter OPV to a 140 meter global patrol frigate

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