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Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

What will be the result of the 'Lighter Frigate' programme?

Programme cancelled, RN down to 14 escorts
51
11%
Programme cancelled & replaced with GP T26
13
3%
A number of heavy OPVs spun as "frigates"
120
26%
An LCS-like modular ship
21
4%
A modernised Type 23
22
5%
A Type 26-lite
65
14%
Less than 5 hulls
21
4%
5 hulls
63
13%
More than 5 hulls
92
20%
 
Total votes: 468

Ron5
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 23 Jul 2019, 18:12

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Both Arrowhead and MEKO are in risk of resigning from the bid? Anyway, it looks very difficult to bid with fixed price, both HW and AP, they need to add up the survival cost until the actual build starts.

Yes Cammell Laird, if lost the Leander bid, can help, but as it will be free bid process, I cannot blame them if they try to bid as high as possible, eating all the profits of Babcock. CL itself is struggling to survive.

By the way, only 130 labors there? Appledore had 190 when abandoned by Babcock. (while 140 of them were already relocated to Devonport, and only ~40 was remaining there).


If the competition were to be decided purely on industrial grounds, Bae/CL would romp away with the prize.

But this is the UK, so it will be decided by a combination of politics, old boy networks, and industrial & military ignorant politician/civil servants.

clinch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby clinch » 24 Jul 2019, 18:33

Ron5 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Both Arrowhead and MEKO are in risk of resigning from the bid? Anyway, it looks very difficult to bid with fixed price, both HW and AP, they need to add up the survival cost until the actual build starts.

Yes Cammell Laird, if lost the Leander bid, can help, but as it will be free bid process, I cannot blame them if they try to bid as high as possible, eating all the profits of Babcock. CL itself is struggling to survive.

By the way, only 130 labors there? Appledore had 190 when abandoned by Babcock. (while 140 of them were already relocated to Devonport, and only ~40 was remaining there).


If the competition were to be decided purely on industrial grounds, Bae/CL would romp away with the prize.

But this is the UK, so it will be decided by a combination of politics, old boy networks, and industrial & military ignorant politician/civil servants.


Politics should favour Cammell Laird as well. BoJo as PM will increase the likelihood of Scottish independence.

Jake1992
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 24 Jul 2019, 18:43

clinch wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Both Arrowhead and MEKO are in risk of resigning from the bid? Anyway, it looks very difficult to bid with fixed price, both HW and AP, they need to add up the survival cost until the actual build starts.

Yes Cammell Laird, if lost the Leander bid, can help, but as it will be free bid process, I cannot blame them if they try to bid as high as possible, eating all the profits of Babcock. CL itself is struggling to survive.

By the way, only 130 labors there? Appledore had 190 when abandoned by Babcock. (while 140 of them were already relocated to Devonport, and only ~40 was remaining there).


If the competition were to be decided purely on industrial grounds, Bae/CL would romp away with the prize.

But this is the UK, so it will be decided by a combination of politics, old boy networks, and industrial & military ignorant politician/civil servants.


Politics should favour Cammell Laird as well. BoJo as PM will increase the likelihood of Scottish independence.


A smart PM would say to the SNP yes you can have another indiRef but not until 5 years after brexit has gone through to allow the Scottish population to see what it’s really like and not just predictions.
That would be a fair offer that if turned down would show the SNP up for being unreasonable.

In the mean time invest in both English and Scottish yards by increasing RN orders this gives you a back in if the worse happens but also shows the Scots they are a part of the family well invest in.

SD67
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SD67 » 25 Jul 2019, 08:49

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Caribbean wrote:Since "exportability" is the main focus of both the NSS AND the T31 RFI, I doubt Babcocks would have wasted more than a few minutes on the A140 if they hadn't got the IP issues nailed down from day 1.
Sorry, you miss my point. I should have written it more directly.

Babcock DO HAVE an export license of Vard7 80, and they sold it to Irish Navy. With the experience, I guess they even designed Vard7 90 OPVs, also sold to Irish navy. Good. But, it did not stopped Tennix Australia (now BAE) to build two Vard7 85 OPV for RNZN which is another development of Vard-7 80 OPV. In this case,
- Babcock DO HAVE an export license
- but it was not exclusive license (not forced to include Babcock in all future program)
I think this is the common way. Similarly, if Atlas-UK win T31e, I do not expect them to have an exclusive license of MEKO A200. If it were exclusive license, then it is very special case, and I want to know if it is the case.


One big difference is that Vard(Fincantieri) and TKMS are still very much in the shipbuilding business, OMT is not. Realistically a pure design house is not going to win an export deal on their own even if it’s a local build there’s never 100% local content, in practice there has to be a parent yard with recent build experience to support the industrial side. IH’s parent yard no longer exists.
My take on it is if Arrowhead wins then Rosyth becomes the new parent yard supporting overseas bids, OMT gets some consultancy work off the back end

jonas
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jonas » 25 Jul 2019, 09:06

O'h dear, as there were some new posts I came to look at the latest news on T31. I'm still looking. :thumbdown:

SW1
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 06 Aug 2019, 19:44

LONDON — The Northern Irish shipyard that built the Titanic ceased business Aug. 5, and its part in a bid to build a new class of the general-purpose frigate for the British Royal Navy appears to have sunk with it.

Harland and Wolff was the lead U.K. yard in a proposal by German-based warship company Atlas Elektronik to build five Type 31e frigates for the Royal Navy.

But the Belfast shipyard of Harland and Wolff went into administration after a 158-year history, which included production of the Titanic and ended with its parent company insolvent and running out of offshore renewable-energy work that had become the mainstay of its business.

Industry executives, who spoke on condition of anonymity, said that unless Atlas has a plan B, the bid has likely been scuttled by the Belfast yard slipping into administration and thus putting the jobs of 125 on-site workers at risk.

Atlas Elektronik UK did not return calls regarding its bid.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2019/ ... ard-times/

Pongoglo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Pongoglo » 07 Aug 2019, 10:16

Did Harland and Wolff not also form part of the Babcock bid ?

Caribbean
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Caribbean » 07 Aug 2019, 12:04

Yes, they did, along with Ferguson Marine, who have their own problems. At this rate, Babcocks will have to reopen Appledore, if they win the contract!
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

clinch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby clinch » 07 Aug 2019, 13:20

Caribbean wrote:Yes, they did, along with Ferguson Marine, who have their own problems. At this rate, Babcocks will have to reopen Appledore, if they win the contract!


You would assume it all plays into the hands of Leander.

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 07 Aug 2019, 14:13

Personally I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that H&W is now closed permanently. Compared to Appledore the infrastructure is very impressive. With the T31, FSS and FLSS programmes still active, yards like H&W should have a bright future - if only HMG would back British industry and stop hiding behind EU procurement rules.

How important could H&W's superb drydocking facilities be for the remainder of the UK if Scotland leaves the Union? It's well worth considering from a national security point of view IMO.

clinch
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby clinch » 07 Aug 2019, 14:56

Poiuytrewq wrote:Personally I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that H&W is now closed permanently. Compared to Appledore the infrastructure is very impressive. With the T31, FSS and FLSS programmes still active, yards like H&W should have a bright future - if only HMG would back British industry and stop hiding behind EU procurement rules.

How important could H&W's superb drydocking facilities be for the remainder of the UK if Scotland leaves the Union? It's well worth considering from a national security point of view IMO.


The problem is that Northern Ireland could well leave the Union as well.

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Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 07 Aug 2019, 17:22

clinch wrote:The problem is that Northern Ireland could well leave the Union as well.
True but the best way to maintain the Union is through sharing the benefits. A distributed build across the home nations may not be the most efficient way to build the T31's/FSS/FLSS, but it will be money well spent if it helps avoid the massive upheaval of the breakup of the UK.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 Aug 2019, 02:06

1: The heart of NSbS is "competition" (which I do not support considering shrinking size of RN fleet). If not, there is no need to invest in very-inefficient "second escort builder". Bankrupt of H&W is because of losing in competition. Winner survives and loser dies. In other words, survivors are the winner. (*1)

The key question now is, how Babcock or AtlasElectricUK is going to support H&W. T31e is a competition (if HMG follows NSbS), so if they want to win, they need to invest. Now, to my understanding, we hear nothing from Babcock and AEUK. They are the prime player here, not the MOD (if it is competition). Do anyone have any information there?

# Also, in view of "team-UK" bidding for MARS-SSS, not only Babcock but also BAE and Cammell Laird shall invest on H&W now, if they want to win the bid? Competition is always with investments.


2: H&W bankrupted even they had remaining contracts (*2), and 22M+ GBP is large enough to support 120 worker for longer than one year. So it will be debts which killed H&W. If they can somehow cancel the debts, they can revive?


*1: On this regard, CL and BAE are the winner, if we stick to "competition". Why not AEUK and Babcock resign from the bid?

*2: from SavetheRoyanNavy, August 7, 2019 post : ..H&W has a £22m contract to refit the Terra Nova, a large oil production storage and offloading vessel on its books. It has also been sub-contracted by BAE Systems for small amounts of steelwork fabrication for the Dreadnought submarine programme.

# Personally, I think the key is MARS-SSS, not T31e. If there is only T31e, if Arrowhead 140 or MEKO A200 wins, CL's ship building section is in big risk (looks like they also have no booking order). If Leander, not clear how H&W can survive.

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RichardIC
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby RichardIC » 08 Aug 2019, 06:44

Please folks, this is all opinion, not news.

abc123
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 08 Aug 2019, 08:02

clinch wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Personally I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that H&W is now closed permanently. Compared to Appledore the infrastructure is very impressive. With the T31, FSS and FLSS programmes still active, yards like H&W should have a bright future - if only HMG would back British industry and stop hiding behind EU procurement rules.

How important could H&W's superb drydocking facilities be for the remainder of the UK if Scotland leaves the Union? It's well worth considering from a national security point of view IMO.


The problem is that Northern Ireland could well leave the Union as well.


Yeep. I think that the HMG should concentrate on England, that's the only really reliable part of the UK. And that means CL.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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SKB
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SKB » 08 Aug 2019, 08:29

T31 News only please (read the thread title^), from authenticated sources. No gossip, heresay, wishful thinking or rumours please.

SW1
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby SW1 » 09 Aug 2019, 19:06

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... s-49299585

The firm behind the Ferguson shipyard in Port Glasgow has begun the process of going into administration.
Ferguson Marine Engineering directors are expected to serve notice of their intent to go into administration by the end of next week.
The business has been involved in a long-running dispute with the Scottish government over the construction of two ferries for CalMac.
The government said it was committed to securing the future of the yard.
The £97m ferries contract is behind schedule and considerably over budget, and the company's finances are precarious.

jimthelad
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jimthelad » 10 Aug 2019, 20:37

That is because the fuckwit SNP led administration specified an all electric drive system with 2 diesel generator sets which ended up being insufficient and that no-one in the UK had ever built before. That and that the whole lower deck needed a redesign to meet the new environmental regs that we were forced to adopt so the Green party could prop up their minority so called 'government'.

If you think Westminster is inept, try living up here. We pay more tax and get less efficient service due those self obsessed single tracked assholes! Rant over, and yes this may be not news but consider it frontline reporting from someone who actually has been at real frontline.

jimthelad
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby jimthelad » 12 Aug 2019, 18:56

Does the proposed nationalisation of Ferguson mean that they do not meet the necessary criteria for inclusion for T31 vs state aid/ subsidy. If so then that would be a true CF on Ms Fishy's behalf. Anyone know how this is handled for contracts for EU law?

Tinman
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tinman » 16 Aug 2019, 14:17

It seems a lot of random deleting has taken place. I offered my services as a moderator back when the site was young, as a then serving member of the Royal Airforce Regiment. From JTAC, JPR Force Protection, to MERT.

However I don’t contribute enough.

Some could say that would be the perfect type of moderator, with the ammount of fan boi, fantasy fleets.

The cold realities is that a good number of reserve and serving members have left this forum due to the usual suspects.

You can follow the bread crumbs from here to Pprunne, Twitter. Atleast they have not infested the serious parts of a well know forum.

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cockneyjock1974
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby cockneyjock1974 » 16 Aug 2019, 14:25

I have sent a PM to both mods, but it seems to have “disappeared” so I’ll say it here. We need more mods, because around a half dozen fantasists and a chronic retweeter have ruined this forum. Which at the start was a worthy successor to MP.Net.

Tinman
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby Tinman » 16 Aug 2019, 14:33

cockneyjock1974 wrote:I have sent a PM to both mods, but it seems to have “disappeared” so I’ll say it here. We need more mods, because around a half dozen fantasists and a chronic retweeter have ruined this forum. Which at the start was a worthy successor to MP.Net.

The fantasists are emotional, I’ve even tried ignoring them but on certain topics it’s like a 15 year olds party mainlining hating and red bull.

bobp
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby bobp » 16 Aug 2019, 16:01

@CJ
I have sent a PM to both mods, but it seems to have “disappeared” so I’ll say it here. We need more mods, because around a half dozen fantasists and a chronic retweeter have ruined this forum. Which at the start was a worthy successor to MP.Net.

Remember MP Net well. A lot of good stuff on there, One thing for sure it had a few good contributors. There are a lot of fantasists here for sure, creeping into the threads and spoiling them. Also a lot of people who think they Know it all and have no room for others in there discussions.
Sorry if this is all off topic but it has to be said.

abc123
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby abc123 » 16 Aug 2019, 16:47

bobp wrote:Remember MP Net well. A lot of good stuff on there, One thing for sure it had a few good contributors. There are a lot of fantasists here for sure, creeping into the threads and spoiling them. Also a lot of people who think they Know it all and have no room for others in there discussions.
Sorry if this is all off topic but it has to be said.


Yeah, MP net was a great forum. RIP

However, considering that all this talk is OT (Type 31 NEWS ONLY), why not continue here:

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=953
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 31 General Purpose Frigate [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 23 Aug 2019, 15:18

I cannot read it, beyond the pay wall, but H&W looks like to have some days to save.

ref: NavyLookOut.
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/mil- ... e-continu/


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