Finland (Suomi)

[abc123]

Are they taking the latest version with the active seeker. If so it is a pretty powerful AAW for a platform so relatively small.

Considering their close proximity to Russia and that they will be capital ships for Finnish Navy, it's fully understandible.

[ArmChairCivvy]

pretty powerful AAW for a platform so relatively small.

Looks like there has been some size growth, not so much in length though (and it has been kept fairly quiet, but the close neighbours at least are showing interest):
3000 тонн, from "just over" 2000
длиной 105 м, шириной 15 м и осадкой 5 м.
[Search domain bmpd.livejournal.com/3264846.html] https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264846.html
- it is not beyond possibilities that selecting ESSM has played a part

[xav]

Raytheon didn"t want to confirm the version (block 1 or 2) when i asked them...

[ArmChairCivvy]

Their prime will be the CMS provider (=integrator) and there are still three of those in the running
- prgrm office = the navy
- builder = Rauma yards
- integrator = ?, but will assume full financial risk as for all chosen weapons working to spec
... quite a collection: Raytheon, Saab (for more than one), Israeli modern-day Gabriel...

[Lord Jim]

pretty powerful AAW for a platform so relatively small.

Looks like there has been some size growth, not so much in length though (and it has been kept fairly quiet, but the close neighbours at least are showing interest):
3000 тонн, from "just over" 2000
длиной 105 м, шириной 15 м и осадкой 5 м.
[Search domain bmpd.livejournal.com/3264846.html] https://bmpd.livejournal.com/3264846.html
- it is not beyond possibilities that selecting ESSM has played a part

Is that an artist's impression of the new Finnish design?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Is that an artist's impression of the new Finnish design?

Yep, one of the many. Note Rheinmetall Oerlikon CIWS (which I do not think has been selected... yet)

[Voldemort]

Finland developes super jumping charge that kills from above. Very excited about this, FDF hopefully ends up buying loads of them. I bet UK could use a few of them.

[Lord Jim]

We are too politically correct these days to openly use them, SF who knows.

[Voldemort]

That's your loss. Imagine the boost in AT capability you could achieve with bottom attack mines and these new AP charges will help you make up for the small headcount in the battlefield.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Claymore replacement is already happening, though that one fires "forward" over a wide arch.
- there can't be that many companies in Finland making these sorts of things, so probs from the same factory (adjacent production line)?
- these sorts as separate from small arms & artillery rounds (Nammo)

[Lord Jim]

The problem with mines nowadays is that due to the Ottawa treaty you have to have a man in the loop. The various method of remote sensing and control start to make mines expensive and remote control leads to he possibility of the enemy blocking the detonation signal or the controller being incapacitated. They are no longer the cheap disposable multipliers they once were but more like ground base smart weapons. They still have their uses but have to be used in a different way.

[Voldemort]

Claymore replacement is already happening, though that one fires "forward" over a wide arch.
- there can't be that many companies in Finland making these sorts of things, so probs from the same factory (adjacent production line)?
- these sorts as separate from small arms & artillery rounds (Nammo)

Correct, they're made by Forcit. Nammo has some facilities in Finland but I don't know what they make there.

The problem with mines nowadays is that due to the Ottawa treaty you have to have a man in the loop. The various method of remote sensing and control start to make mines expensive and remote control leads to he possibility of the enemy blocking the detonation signal or the controller being incapacitated. They are no longer the cheap disposable multipliers they once were but more like ground base smart weapons. They still have their uses but have to be used in a different way.

Anti personnel charges need to have a man in the loop, anti vehicle mines do not need to have a man in the loop. All Finnish AT mines are passive and detonated by the presence of vehicle, either it's driving over the mine and igniting the detonator or giving enough signal for the sensors on the smarter mines. No man in the loop what so ever. Finland has signed Ottawa treaty.

[Lord Jim]

I understand the different situation with AP and AT mines but will a HGV or large 4x4 set off an AT mine? If so then again you need a man in the loop to prevent such occurrences. Given the zero tolerance for civilian casualties you can see the issue. Whether there is still a need for fixed AT minefields, fenced off and sign posted is one thing, as is there use in anything but high intensity warfare. Politicians do not like negative press and you cannot get more so than the deaths of civilians form a mine or such like.

[ArmChairCivvy]

is there use in anything but high intensity warfare. Politicians do not like negative press

Just to set your mind in peace on this issue, I think there is only one scenario that those Finns are preparing for, and to give you an idea (about high intensity or otherwise), the joke goes that after 30% cuts in the Bundeswehr Finland ended up having the biggest artillery this side of the old Iron Curtain (1300 pieces).
- asked about it, the answer was: Wadda'u mean, a lot of pieces? It only makes for one per km, on the 1300 km long border. On the other side, there are 22.000

[Voldemort]

I understand the different situation with AP and AT mines but will a HGV or large 4x4 set off an AT mine? If so then again you need a man in the loop to prevent such occurrences. Given the zero tolerance for civilian casualties you can see the issue. Whether there is still a need for fixed AT minefields, fenced off and sign posted is one thing, as is there use in anything but high intensity warfare. Politicians do not like negative press and you cannot get more so than the deaths of civilians form a mine or such like.

Yes, they can set off the AT mines. Our basic AT mine has 150kg threshold.

[Voldemort]

as is there use in anything but high intensity warfare.

You make it sound like high intensity is off the table for you guys...

[Lord Jim]

Not really it is just that certain weapons make the Politician nervous about have the public will react so basically any dumb weapon is acceptable unless it is the only option. However the UK Military still has many requirements for smarter weapon that still have not been met such as artillery shells. Enter the UOR systems when the next crisis appears and we do a band aid field upgrade to the AS-90 and beg or borrow Excalibur rounds from the US Army.

[abc123]

is there use in anything but high intensity warfare. Politicians do not like negative press

Just to set your mind in peace on this issue, I think there is only one scenario that those Finns are preparing for, and to give you an idea (about high intensity or otherwise), the joke goes that after 30% cuts in the Bundeswehr Finland ended up having the biggest artillery this side of the old Iron Curtain (1300 pieces).
- asked about it, the answer was: Wadda'u mean, a lot of pieces? It only makes for one per km, on the 1300 km long border. On the other side, there are 22.000

Yeep. Kudos to the Finns, an example of country taking their defence seriously.

[Lord Jim]

Agreed, like Sweden and a few other the Finns actually believe defence is important and not a flag waving tool like consecutive UK Governments.

[xav]

Saab Shortlisted as Combat System Provider for Finnish Squadron 2020 Programme

Finland’s Ministry of Defence has announced that Saab is shortlisted as combat system provider and integrator for the Finnish Navy’s four new Pohjanmaa-class corvettes within the Squadron 2020 programme.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... programme/

[ArmChairCivvy]

Hi xav,

it is a little bit more than that; they were one of the three shortlisted.

As Finland had a GE and effectively does not have Gvmnt (major contracts are put on hold), Saab and the two others were told that Saab has been chosen "for exclusive further talks" so that the others could stand their teams down... a recall always possible; should the refining process hit a stone wall.
RE:
"Saab has not yet signed a contract or received an order relating to Squadron 2020."

[ArmChairCivvy]

What's more fun than handbrake turns in snow? https://www.edrmagazine.eu/patria-6x6-a ... in-lapland
- handbrake turns on ice, of course, but could leave more than just the head spinning

[Voldemort]

https://ssi.armywarcollege.edu/pubs/dis ... Ww.twitter

Why can't I upload images? Attachment quota reached?? MOODS!!

[Voldemort]

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/finnish-defe ... hicle-pmpv

Finland has received first PMPVs.

[Lord Jim]

God looking platform, would make a good option for the UK MODs MRV(P) 6x6 if they decide to pursue that programme.