Finland (Suomi)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Reads v much like a mktng blurb https://militaryleak.com/2020/02/19/boe ... challenge/
but as XAV put the new EA pod news on, I checked for this deal's status and some percentages leaped out from the above text
- 60% of the Hornet support in place can be reused
- Growler (as an a/c) has 90% commonality with SH
- in-country repairs (as Hornets were assembled in country)
... and of course the not-cheap JASSMs, already in inventory, do fit
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by Lord Jim »

Another bit of trivia, is that the Swedes, aircraft and crew flew under Finish colours during the winter war and provide other support as well.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The birth process of baby-AMV is well its way as both Estonia and Latvia are onboard
- 6 wheels, just like in the days before AMV (the concept included a 6-wheeler from the beginning, to live up to the "M" in the name)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by Lord Jim »

Given the parents it should be a very healthy baby and be much in demand as it grows up and matures. Would it fit the timeframe for out MRV(P) block 2 I wonder or are we wedded to the Bushmaster which seems to be the front runner?

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xav
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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Finnish Navy Hamina-Class Fast-Attack Craft Fires Torpedo For The First Time
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On 19 August, the Finnish Navy conducted its first torpedo firing in the Archipelago Sea with a TP45 torpedo borrowed from Försvarets Materialverk, FMV, Swedish Defence Materiel Administration. This was the first time that a torpedo has been launched from a Hamina-class fast-attack craft and the first time in decades that the Navy has operated a piece of torpedo weaponry.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... irst-time/

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xav
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by xav »

In video:


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xav
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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Finland Progressing Towards Construction Of Pohjanmaa-Class Corvette
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Finland's Pohjanmaa-class corvette program is making good progress. According to the Finnish Navy, the procurement contracts signed a year ago laid a solid foundation and the preparatory work is currently underway for the start of construction in 2022.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -corvette/

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Interesting that both the graph and the bulleted spec omit the guns; Could it be that the one in the back (which at one point disappeared altogether) is to be the Millennium gun. Not many pixels in that graph, but looks like one to me?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Interesting that both the graph and the bulleted spec omit the guns; Could it be that the one in the back (which at one point disappeared altogether) is to be the Millennium gun. Not many pixels in that graph, but looks like one to me?
Looks like they used an old CGI. Currently it looks like they've gone with 57mm Bofors (although the OTO 76mm appeared to be in some earlier CGI's) and 2 x NSV MG's in Saab Trackfire RWS. The 57mm might be very sensible as the Hamina Class had their swapped out for Bofor's 40mm to save weight. Might be the Finnish Navy has some 57mm turrets lying around.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Nicely energises
" a $4.6 billion order for the F-35 fighter aircraft from the Polish government, including 32 F-35A" the Finnish competition, with its $12/ e10 (the FX in that?) bn ceiling, with all in
- the 'all in' favours the incumbent, albeit Hornet/ SH have substantial differences. One could start with the inventory (or sunk cost) of cruise missiles
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)


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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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As for those numbers (the difference in quantities is interesting) and esp.
"Obviously both massively exceed the €9.3 billion budget" they are for (or with) all optional extras, not all options to be taken up
- more importantly, over the 30-yr life span two MLUs have been calculated to take e 2bn more
... I wonder in what config the F-35s would be coming so that those monies will not be dug into in less than 10 yrs' time (should that a/c be chosen)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:As for those numbers (the difference in quantities is interesting) and esp.
"Obviously both massively exceed the €9.3 billion budget" they are for (or with) all optional extras, not all options to be taken up
- more importantly, over the 30-yr life span two MLUs have been calculated to take e 2bn more
... I wonder in what config the F-35s would be coming so that those monies will not be dug into in less than 10 yrs' time (should that a/c be chosen)?
I would have done a deal for patria vehicles for the army and Nokia for the 5g networks in the UK in exchange for typhoons but that’s a pipe dream now. Given that Finland and Sweden are getting ever deeper involved if it were my money I’d be taking the saab offer.

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by Lord Jim »

I think logic would be in favour of the SAAB proposal but the F-35 is so shiny and new it will probably mesmerise the Finnish Air Force. Those with the purse strings may lean towards the Super Hornet as it looks like what they already have in service even though it is a totally new airplane. I do not envy the selection team.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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SW1 wrote: if it were my money I’d be taking the saab offer.
Last time around Gripen was a prototype; this time it is already a rounded product.
- in-country support between the two countries would be impressive
Lord Jim wrote:as it looks like what they already have in service even though it is a totally new airplane.
In-country support does not look bad for Boeing's offer, either, as 57 one-seater F-18C Hornets were assembled by Patria between the years 1995 and 2000.(The also did the same for 50 of the 52 NH90s bought by the Nordics).

The new info seems to be that a lesser number of F-35s have been judged as performant as the SH/Growler combo
- however, having more airframes (though with capabilities divided between them) means that you can have more in the air at any given time... especially if you buy the SHs with conformals

I think I saw a number for next year, when the down payments become due (and steel will be cut for the Pohjanmaa 'corvettes'), quoting a 54% jump in defence outlays.
... looks like the air chief and the navy's head honcho are headed for knighthoods; they are much cheaper to produce
- air defence (defensive, or offensive counter air) is difficult to do while the plane is sitting on the ground, being turned around
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The size of Pohjanmaa class has rekindled the discussion whether they are frigates or corvettes (the official version: very performant corvettes)
- driven by the fact that the mainstay of the Russian Baltic Fleet, the Steregushchiy class ( also multipurpose corvettes) are smaller.
- corvettes would rhyme well (vs. blue water frigates) though as both classes are to be used for littoral zone operations (much attention has been paid to the Pohjanmaas design to have a shallow draught), engagement of enemy submarines and surface ships, and gun support of landing operations
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Leaks or just rumours? Who knows
Against F-35, supposedly in two-figure percentage higher yearly costs (LM has offered a lease-like fixed cost for support, they made a similar 5-yr offer to the Pentagon)

Against Rafale and Eurofighter: if the order is placed in a year's time, will it be the last for the type; not a good position (for the user) to be in

SH & Gripen??? The rumour mill obviously :) ran out of creativity
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Against Rafale and Eurofighter: if the order is placed in a year's time, will it be the last for the type; not a good position (for the user) to be in
for typhoon a lot will ride on if Germany and Spain place orders totalling 100+ jets to replace Tornado and F-18 if so then the Finish order would add to this and be part of this

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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Tempest414 wrote:for typhoon a lot will ride on if Germany and Spain place orders totalling 100+ jets to replace Tornado and F-18 if so then the Finish order would add to this and be part of this
Absolutely, but they have worded the risk they see as being the last to place the order and only further batches of Spanish orders (which are likely) would avert this
- on the other hand the Finns and the Swiss were the last to order from the Hornet line... so they have experience in managing this, as in
A (+) they got a souped up A2A radar, meant to be going into the SH, and
A (-) I think the MLU enhancements (when all the manufacturer's effort was already going into the SH) was not quite as straight forward as hd been thought
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:on the other hand the Finns and the Swiss were the last to order from the Hornet line
I've been told that the HX prgrm does not actually stand for Hornet(neXt) but rather the the H is generic for fighter (in Finnish). Anyway

e9.4 bn to buy the goodies has been authorised
e579 mln for managing the parallelism of having both old and new in use, in transition
and e21 for running the selection & trials

Wait a minute, that comes out with the sum of 1-dot-dot-dot, by coincidence?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Full and final request having gone out to all five in the HX competition, a little bit more detail of the process leading to decision has been released:

Tick box for these factors
assured supply
industrial partnering (can support the above criterion)
total cost (within set limit)

All those that pass will be ranked for cost effectiveness, but after that step their performance will be evaluated/ verified in a simulation (war gaming is never just a computer prgrm and to what degree such support has been built/ procured has not been disclosed).

The Swiss competition runs on a roughly similar timeline, but not much (?) heard lately
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by SW1 »

“Assured supply”

I think the events of the past week will highlight in big bold letters in the need to ensure that assured supply is exactly that. In country assembly may become very important

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

SW1 wrote: In country assembly may become very important
Yes, The previous Hornets were (almost all) assembled in-country. In Gripen's case x-country integration at all stages of enhancing and producing the plane (parts for it) would apply.

This
e579 mln for managing the parallelism of having both old and new in use, in transition
being a fixed allocation favours the reuse of (whatever, from maintenance arrangements and tried logs chains to reuse of weapon stockpiles) investments already done. Perhaps applicable to a greater degree to the transition between Hornet/ SH than to any other transition.

Worthwhile to note that once the transition reaches its end point, there is no more dedicated prgrm funding. So more expensive flight hours might take the chocolate off the biscuits available in the airmen's mess... or mean fewer rounds allocated to every recruit's training in the infantry
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Gmlrs got AW variety ordered in 2016, and now ER (what's that?)
- surely the one with double range and half unit price is not ready yet?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Finland (Suomi)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

e9.4 bn to buy the goodies has been authorised
e579 mln for managing the parallelism of having both old and new in use, in transition
and e21 for running the selection & trials

Wait a minute, that comes out with the sum of 1-dot-dot-dot, by coincidence?
In USD, what has been requested - and that is of course a permission only, not a deal - is interesting in the way that the SH/ Growler combo stands for abt $ 2 bln more than the F-35 request.
- this is all surely 'fun & games' so that the folks who have to figure out what, from the weapons (ooh, cruise missiles and all kinds of expensive stuff) stash will be reusable, WHILE
- not exposing the selection process for litigation, as for like-for-like comparisons not being followed, that is
- after the selection will have been made

I hear from my contacts that lobbying is reaching a crescendo
- and as there are legal limits to that (like anywhere else)
- some shady defence discussion sites, you know: all private and "it is a discussion between between individuals" have actually been siding with the lobbyists with the "show me the money". No idea who showed the most
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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