Finland (Suomi)

[ArmChairCivvy]

In reverse order: the main finnish daily (of 22 Nov) was quoting from this guy:
"BAE:n kehitysjohtaja (Dvlmnt Mgr) ja Suomeen juuri muuttanut maajohtaja Paul Hitchcock (who has now become the resident country manager for Finland).

BAE:n toimisto sijaitsee vielä vuokratiloissa ja Hitchcock asuu myös alkuun hotellimajoituksessa.

Pudotus Suomeen oli marraskuun pakkasilla kova. "

He puts the ozzie deal value at 3.5bn (talking in Finland, must be in euros then) vs. the 7-10 bn which is touted for (but not confirmed) the fighter purchase.
----------------

About SH i can only quote for your point re: strong on industrial co-operation (discontinuation of line is an explicit possibility, though ! Send it to Finland - heh-heh).
Plus: ease of conversion and carrying over existing weapon stocks.

Note: Saab ties on the first point (not on the latter one).

[ArmChairCivvy]

Defencenews has put together a nice summary (for the length of the quotation not getting out of hand, have snipped the less relevant bits in the middle):

"
The FAF is aiming to accelerate certain high-priority programs. This will see the earlier-than-planned acquisition of new artillery radar systems. These are set to be in place and operational in 2020. Saab, Elta and Raytheon are among the bidders for this contract.

The acquisition of high-precision ammunition for the FAF’s artillery systems, including long-range projectiles, is also being prioritized.[tube artillery already received their Bonus munitions; MLRS order has been placed, including for the new AW]

The FAF is also positioned to introduce a new type of anti-personnel land mine (APLM), developed in Finland, to replace its existing stock of APLMs that are outlawed under the Ottawa Treaty, which Finland signed up to in 2011.
[also ordered by the British Army as Claymore replacements]

Underlining an increased need to elevate its submarine-hunting capabilities, the Finnish Navy’s procurement and capacity-building ambitions for its surface fleet will include a torpedo-fit for its four Hamina-class fast attack ships. This work is being scheduled as part of the mid-life upgrade program, to run in 2019-2021, for the entire missile-class Hamina fleet.
[- to be followed by the new corvettes that will combine the underwater sub-hunting capability with a rumoured combination of point and limited area AD systems ]

The HX fighter replacement program (HX)
[...]

The Ministry of Defense (MoD) issued a request for information (RFI) to manufacturers in November 2016. The candidate aircraft offered include BAE Systems’ Eurofighter Typhoon, Saab’s JAS Gripen-E, Boeing’s F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Aviation’s Rafale and Lockheed Martin’s F-35 Lightning II.
.
[...] The MoD aims to conclude the selection process in 2021

State-owned defense group Patria in December 2016 delivered the last of the upgraded F/A-18 Hornets to the Finnish Air Force. All 62 Hornets were part of the Mid-Life Upgrade 2 Program 2010-2016. [...]

Post Mid-Life Upgrade 2, the FAF’s Hornets are now equipped with precision-guided air-to-ground weapons, including smart bomb Joint Direct Attack Munitions, the medium-range glide bomb Joint Stand-Off Weapon, and the long-range Joint Air-to-Surface Stand-off Missile."

[ArmChairCivvy]

Funny one came up with the same date as Fallon speech at St. Andrews (about the need to change tack).

A couple of years back bible punchers from America ( supposedly the same that used to smuggle bibles across the iron curtain) set up radio stations. Once they had the operating license, the next story was that we are so poor that we cannot afford to rent the masts, like everyone else does
- but we will build our own, only small ones as we will have local stations

Fast forward a couple of years, a known front for FSB tries to buy up a network... a little bit of scrutiny, and it transpires that the masts are close to
- 3 of the 4 airbases
- one of the biggest ammunition and explosives stores
- and the transportation hub to re-enforce the defences of the North (1/3 of the whole country) from the more populous parts

Application for change of control not granted, 2/2/2017!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Procurement of 48 k-9 Thunders from ROK has now been made official (146m euros burnt for that).

The local mods will include a balloon filled with water, placed within the muzzle break, in order to stop Opfor from detecting the firing location with their thermal sights in cold-weather conditions:
http://www.defmin.fi/files/3690/textsiz ... nta0_1.jpg

Joke-joke!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Finland just upped the mobilisable field army by 50.000, after two big drops (1985 and 1992) from the half a million level.

20.000 of the change is attributable to changing the border guards (and their reserves) from para-military to full military status (they will have 1 in 4 regulars to reserves ratio) and contracting some of the conscripts at the very beginning of their service for a prolonged period, so that they will form deployable units towards the end of their service.
- readiness and acquisition monies were also upped for the years ahead

[ArmChairCivvy]

CMS bids for use on the corvettes to be built have been asked from 3 firms:
Atlas Elektronik GmbH, Lockheed Martin Canada Inc and Saab Ab

One could ask if that is actually 2 as LockMart was the lead for integrating the newest generation Saab CMS onto the refurbed Halifax Class frigates.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Some spice to the on-going HX fighter competition through FOI requests regarding the previous round at the beginning of the '90s:

Mig-29 did not have any domestic orders, the thru-life pricing (I guess done honestly) came up the highest (since then proven by the Malaysian case, keeping them uptodate with western upgrades).

So the default following on from there was to do the same as what was in Saab's offer: Invitation to become a partner for Mig-31 development (just like with Gripen B, with "unlimited" liability until there would be a working product).

A contrasting approach: F-16's manufacturer not willing to accept any mods to the model (then) rolling off the production line.

Mirage and Hornet dogfighting to the end:
- more credible upgrade path, including BVR capability, for Hornet
- more straightforward support and maintenance system for Hornet (industrial participation building up for on-going deep maintenance)
So those then made for a kill in that dog fight and the availability record (somewhere around 80s in % - figures not released) while eating the pudding has become the proof

[ArmChairCivvy]

Interesting news emerging around the new corvettes being added, namely the other main class (Hamina, will lose the company of their brethren, the Rauma class ( by accident a specimen has slipped into the linked video, just before 3 minutes is up).

Both classes, the new corvettes and the Haminas will need to be able to operate more than half way out and through the Baltic. Which in the Hamina case means that they will have a section added with space for more fuel/ whatever the endurance change requires.

From the sleek profile one would not think that they have both AD (Umkhonto) and ASuW (RBS-15) missiles. But for ASW they have depended on the Raumas (that will be no more). So,
- my guess is that the extra section will also house the same triple launcher (for 400 mm torps) as is found on the Visbys; they will also get VDS

All of this adds up to that much that the gun (57 mm B ofors, with mag) is likely to be a lighter edition... but which one... the rumours do not say.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Forgetting now the winner of the Norway SPG competition (K9?), but anyway the Finnish K9s are getting a Norwegian/ Finnish mix of BMS & comms installed (under a "digitation" theme)
http://defencetechnologyreview.realview ... /#folio=14

[dmereifield]

A little bit more info (confirmation of prior assumptions/announcements) on Finland's F/A-18 Hornet replacement plan:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_18s.html

Invitation to tender next year. 2021 still the decision date, at least 1:1.replacement expected....

Unless BAE secure a substantial additional order (Qatar? Saudi Arabia?) the Typhoon production line will have ended long before 2021....

[abc123]

A little bit more info (confirmation of prior assumptions/announcements) on Finland's F/A-18 Hornet replacement plan:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_18s.html

Invitation to tender next year. 2021 still the decision date, at least 1:1.replacement expected....

Unless BAE secure a substantial additional order (Qatar? Saudi Arabia?) the Typhoon production line will have ended long before 2021....

Never mind, it's obvious that they will buy F-35.

[dmereifield]

A little bit more info (confirmation of prior assumptions/announcements) on Finland's F/A-18 Hornet replacement plan:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... f_18s.html

Invitation to tender next year. 2021 still the decision date, at least 1:1.replacement expected....

Unless BAE secure a substantial additional order (Qatar? Saudi Arabia?) the Typhoon production line will have ended long before 2021....

Never mind, it's obvious that they will buy F-35.

How do you know? How sure are you?

[ArmChairCivvy]

The voice on the line from Maskwu has told him to be sure and find out (here) if anyone can come up with serious (fact based) objections
... which will then be spread to that geographical target market as "expert opinions" by someone getting straight cash for writing in the national press of the country concerned - in this case Finland

[abc123]

The voice on the line from Maskwu has told him to be sure and find out (here) if anyone can come up with serious (fact based) objections
... which will then be spread to that geographical target market as "expert opinions" by someone getting straight cash for writing in the national press of the country concerned - in this case Finland

A bunch of noncences, as usual...

Actually F-35 would be the only logical choice by the Finland. What other western aircraft would be competitive if decision is made in 2021 and first aircrafts will be delivered few years later, as usual? Finland is country that holds it's defence as a serious matter and will choose the only logical solution.

Cosidering that they have a long border with Russia ( and there's no love lost between Finns and Russians ) even buying B-version would have sense IMHO.

[Defiance]

They walk a fine line regarding Russia and the West, F-35 may be flying too close to the sun.

[ArmChairCivvy]

F-35 may be flying too close to the sun.

It does not carry the JASSM, anyway... which is the offensive counter-air weapon of choice, for evening out the odds in the air (where numbers airborne at any given time may be heavily tilted against the defending side).

[abc123]

They walk a fine line regarding Russia and the West, F-35 may be flying too close to the sun.

No sense to buy EF or Rafale. By the time they get them in service and reach IOC, they will mostly be outdated allready. The Americans will probably have first 6-th generation aircrafts flying by the moment they get all 75. So, F-35 is the only logical choice. After all, they ARE operating American F-18 now.

[abc123]

F-35 may be flying too close to the sun.

It does not carry the JASSM, anyway... which is the offensive counter-air weapon of choice, for evening out the odds in the air (where numbers airborne at any given time may be heavily tilted against the defending side).

So it's impossible to integrate it with F-35? Or do you think that the US and Australia will not do so in a next 5-10 years?

[Defiance]

They walk a fine line regarding Russia and the West, F-35 may be flying too close to the sun.

After all, they ARE operating American F-18 now.

The 'made in' sticker wasn't the point, not by a long shot, it's more nuanced than that. F-35 is a massive data hoover right on their border in an area they're increasingly becoming more involved in.

None of the fighters in the list can intelligently collect and combine as much/as many data sources as the F-35.

[xav]

BAE Systems awarded 40 Mk4 Naval Gun contract for Finland

BAE Systems will produce and deliver Bofors 40 Mk4 Naval Guns for the Finnish Navy and its Hamina Class Squadron 2000 fast attack craft, under a contract with Patria, the prime contractor for the vessel’s mid-life upgrade and overhaul program.

https://www.navyrecognition.com/index.p ... nland.html

[ArmChairCivvy]

for the vessel’s mid-life upgrade

xav, thanks, as that has been long rumoured
due to the fact that the Haminas have been built with the same formula as the F-35: stealthy and with hardly any weight margin, so a lighter gun makes it possible to add the ASW-torp system.

Which brings in the other parallel: The Finnish navy getting their 4 corvettes for about 300 million (euros, though) each
- the Hamina 57mm's being cross-decked, gratis, or if there is any book value left it must have run down to hardly anything during their service lives
- a bit like our T31s coming in "cheap"

[ArmChairCivvy]

Re: the above news, also the new light-weight torp from Saab has been chosen.

Whereas neither of these weapons that have just received export clearance have been selected yet:

"Announced weapon sales are not final; members of the Senate can now object if they wish, and then negotiations will begin between Finland and the U.S. on final prices and amounts of equipment.

The first package covers 68 Evolved Seasparrow Missiles (ESSM) and one ESSM inert operational missile, along with associated parts and technical expertise, with an estimated cost of $112.7 million. These weapons are for use on Finland’s new Squadron 2020 class Corvette ships.

The second package, which comes with an estimated price tag of $622 million, covers a mix of surface launched Harpoon weapons, which will go on Finland’s Hamina class ships, Multirole Corvette ships, and Coastal Batteries.

Included in this package are 100 RGM-84Q-4 Harpoon Block II Plus Extended Range (ER) Grade B Surface-Launched Missiles, 12 RGM-84L-4 Harpoon Block II Grade B Surface-Launched Missiles, 12 RGM-84Q-4 Harpoon Block II+ ER Grade B Surface-Launched Upgrade Kits, four RTM-84L-4 Harpoon Block II Grade B Exercise Surface-Launched Missiles, and four RTM-84Q-4 Harpoon Block II+ ER Grade B Exercise Surface-Launched Missiles."

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/ ... s-from-us/

[ArmChairCivvy]

The above type of purchases (that one having not been selected from among contending bids, yet) are starting to stack up in the cumulative expenditure as the platforms for them will also need to be procured:

"The allocation of capital expenditure is expected to rise to $1.8bn in 2023 from $1.1bn recorded in 2018, registering a CAGR of 10.80% during the forecast period, the report added.

Procurement of fighter jets and multi-role aircraft, corvettes and land-based C4ISR, in addition to an allotment of 67.6% of Finland’s defence budget towards revenue expenditure are reported to be the primary reasons for the increase in budget"

I am not quite sure how to read the bolded bit in the quote from
http://www.army-technology.com/news/rep ... -6bn-2023/
but I take it that yearly budgets cover that two thirds (including a lot of procurement) in the forecast period, but
the listed "strategic prgrms" account for a third of the total and have been made "more palatable" in the parliamentary budget deliberations by being presented as a temporary "bumping up" as a justified response to the "changed security environment" in the "near abroad"?

BTW the neighbouring Sweden's defence budget went up by 10% in the latest round, but I guess the Patriot and the like purchases of new capability will make for a rising trend for several years. They had already done away with the "famous" dispersal of air operations and the kit needed for those "bare bases" is now back on the shopping list (just as another example)

[ArmChairCivvy]

This story
https://romeosquared.eu/2018/02/06/finl ... corvettes/
has jumped the gun as they have read the US export authorisation as "a deal",
but there is still good detail of what kind of fire power will go onto the 3 kt/ 105m corvettes.
- just the make of the missiles might end up being different

[dmereifield]

http://www.airrecognition.com/index.php ... ement.html

Finland starting the prices of acquiring replacements for their F18s.

"The candidates possible to replace the current fleet of Hornet F/A-18 aircraft are Boeing F/A-18 Super Hornet, F-35 from Lockheed Martin, the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Dassault Rafale and Saab Gripen E.

The official tender requests are being sent via the governments of the United States, Britain, France and Sweden.

The purchase price of the some 60 fighters has been estimated between seven and ten billion euros"

Expected to enter service I'm the second half od the 2020's and still be in service with other major users in 2050....

Anyone want to venture a guess on which way they will go?