Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Bring Deeps
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

Well at least we now know UK F35s no. 017 and no. 020 are not at the bottom of the deep blue sea.


Steven B
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Steven B »

It is being reported in the UKDF that the cause of the crash was "rain covers" that were left on the aircraft. If so pre-flight check procedures may not have been correctly followed.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/carrier ... 0Z8aopAjgI

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bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Steven B wrote: 24 Nov 2021, 08:48 It is being reported in the UKDF that the cause of the crash was "rain covers" that were left on the aircraft. If so pre-flight check procedures may not have been correctly followed.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/carrier ... 0Z8aopAjgI
If correct the ground crew and Pilot will be in trouble.

Defiance
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Defiance »

Seems weird because it relies on so many people not noticing. Not just the ground crew and the pilot but aircraft handlers and people in flyco.

BB85
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by BB85 »

It would explain why they did not ground all of the F35B's until they understood the cause. But it does seem bizarre when there are multiple checks and protocols in place to ensure that very thing can't happen.

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bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Do engine intake covers float? I think this is a red herring. If ingested into the engine it would not be intact.

inch
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by inch »

Do we think it was this or are they just telling us it was this mmh ?

Bring Deeps
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

Don't tell the QAnon team but the cock-up theory is usually the most plausible plus the Sun pays for stories which is always an incentive to leak.

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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KiwiMuzz
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by KiwiMuzz »

Given that they have been a key element in the most important Royal Navy deployment since the Falklands War, VFMA-211 heading for home strikes me as quite a poignant moment. Safe journey Marines :thumbup:

wargame_insomniac
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by wargame_insomniac »

KiwiMuzz wrote: 25 Nov 2021, 11:04 Given that they have been a key element in the most important Royal Navy deployment since the Falklands War, VFMA-211 heading for home strikes me as quite a poignant moment. Safe journey Marines :thumbup:
Yes - having them on board for so long was key to the flight operations for all the exercises and training that UKCSG 21 carried out. I am hoping that UK pilots learnt much from the experience of their USMC fellows, and hopefully for future deployments that UK will have more operational F35's.

Scimitar54
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Scimitar54 »

A useful building block of experience which will pay dividends when SERIOUSLY large Fixed and Rotary Wing components embark as part of a QEC Carrier Air Group in due course.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

How CSG21 deployment proved UK’s reborn carrier strike credentials

By Richard Scott Portsmouth 25 November 2021

After more than a decade without fixed-wing maritime aviation on the front line, the Royal Navy (RN) and Royal Air Force (RAF) are close to completing the first operational outing for the UK’s new “fifth-generation” carrier strike capability.

Led by the 65,000t aircraft carrier and fleet flagship HMS Queen Elizabeth, the six-and-a-half month CSG21 deployment to the Indo-Pacific region has taken a multinational force halfway round the world, by way of the Atlantic, Mediterranean, Suez and the Indian Ocean.

Deployment involves a combined 18 aircraft from 617 Sqn and VMFA-211 unit

It has also provided an important test for the two squadrons of Lockheed Martin F-35B Lightning II combat aircraft embarked, including live combat missions against Daesh, intercepting Russian jets over the eastern Mediterranean, and major multi-carrier exercises in the Pacific, Philippine Sea, and Bay of Bengal.

“Carrier strike gives the UK a brand new capability for which the Royal Navy unashamedly has the lead on,” says Rear Admiral Martin Connell, director force generation in Navy Command Headquarters. “While from the outside that might appear to be relatively straightforward, it is a significant change for us.

“It marks the end of a challenging decade, at the beginning of which we retired the old Invincible-class carriers and the [BAE Systems] Harriers that served us so well. At the same time, we were doubling down on a new carrier capability, and we as the navy had to learn and understand what that meant. That forced us to look really closely at what it was we would want to develop from a sovereign UK perspective.”

Rebuilding and regenerating carrier capability has demanded that the RN and RAF put old enmities to one side. It has also hinged on the assistance provided by key allies, acknowledges Connell.

“The French have been a part of that, yes, but particularly the US Navy and the US Marine Corps [USMC]. The extent to which our partners across the Atlantic have helped us on this journey has been incredible,” he says.

Reflecting the strength of this relationship, Queen Elizabeth’s air group for CSG21 has included 10 F-35Bs from the Marine Fighter Attack Squadron 211 (VMFA-211) alongside eight jets from the RAF’s 617 Sqn.

While the initial move to bring a USMC squadron on board stemmed primarily from the slow ramp-up of the UK’s own Lightning Force, it has at the same time given the RN and the RAF a golden opportunity to demonstrate what levels of interoperability and interchangeability can be achieved with their US partners.

“VMFA-211 has not just embarked as an element of tokenism,” Connell emphasises. “It’s a front line, combat-ready US Marine Corps F-35 squadron fully integrated with the strike group. And we’ve been testing the bounds of that day in, day out. Their energy and focus, and the fact that they’re a couple of years ahead of us with the aircraft, has undoubtedly helped us.”

The US Marine Corps’ VMFA-211 shared operational experience with UK counterparts while embarked on HMS Queen Elizabeth

While interoperability – typically sharing a common tactical picture with allies and partners – is standard practice for the RN, interchangeability goes a step further.

“Having one nation’s aircraft, munitions and people being carried on another nation’s warship reflects the level of trust that exists between the US and the UK,” Connell says. “It’s not easy, and in the last few years we’ve worked really hard on this.”

Embedding VMFA-211 in Queen Elizabeth’s air wing demanded detailed understanding of operating procedures, the provision of special access compartments on board, and clearances for embarked munitions and specialised equipment – such as the Raytheon Joint Precision Approach and Landing System. A USMC colonel is integrated into the strike group staff as US senior national representative.

“In going down that route we’ve realised that you are no longer bound by your own force structure,” Connell says. “We now know that, with very little effort, a Marine Corps F-35 squadron can embark in either of our carriers at relatively short notice.”

Commander UK Carrier Strike Group Commodore Steve Moorhouse and his staff have led the CSG21 deployment from Queen Elizabeth. Speaking in early November as the strike group was heading for a short logistics stop in Duqm, Oman, he told FlightGlobal that high-tempo operations in the Eastern Mediterranean had tested the mettle of the air wing early on in the deployment.

“Back in late June, we were supporting, with F-35, ships from the task group that had pushed up into the Black Sea and were working with RAF [Eurofighter] Typhoons already based in Romania. So that was already a complex air and maritime space where we haven’t previously put fifth-gen jets.

“Concurrently, other elements of the air wing were flying east into Iraq to support Operation Shader. That was a busy time, and as the carrier moved further east, it was increasingly apparent we were attracting the attention of the Russian forces that are based in Syria.

Carrier-based fighters supported counter-Daesh operations in June

“So we were also having to maintain a ready alert on the deck to counter daily probing from the Russian air force coming out to the carrier. Over 30 live intercepts of armed Russian fighter and bomber aircraft were conducted in just over two weeks.

“Responding to quick alert like that is something the Royal Navy hasn’t done with aircraft carriers for a generation. So that’s meant understanding the readiness state that you have to maintain so you can get the jets off at sufficient time to ensure you can intercept an incoming aircraft at appropriate range.”

This intensive period of flying operations served to build confidence and accelerate proficiency ahead of the transit through Suez, and subsequent eastward passage into the Indo-Pacific.

By late July, as units from the Chinese People’s Liberation Army Navy were shadowing CSG21 through the South China Sea, the force was demonstrating its ‘blue water’ credentials. Units and air wings undertook both day and night flying; a number of anti-submarine/anti-surface warfare activities were completed; and flight operations were conducted from Queen Elizabeth concurrent with replenishment at sea operations.

“We were flying fixed-wing almost continuously through the 24-hour period, which is something the US doesn’t do – they surge for 15-hour, maybe 18-hour periods, whereas we were able to keep flying over 24 hours, fixed and rotary-wing,” says Moorhouse. “It really allowed us to show the unique flexibility and agility of Queen Elizabeth-class aviation.

“For example, flying fixed-wing while replenishing is really quite straightforward for us once you’ve got everyone trained and good to go. And we don’t need much wind [over the deck] to launch the jets, even at full weights in hot conditions.

“We are clearly different to an American CVN [nuclear-powered carrier],” he adds. “We don’t have catapults and arrestor gear, we’re not in the same scale in terms of air wing size, and the F-35B does not have the same legs.

“But [Queen Elizabeth] offers something completely different in its agility to get aircraft up and off. A CVN is incredibly impressive, but it is operated very differently and simply does not have the same flexibility.”

Another first, completed in August during exercises in the Pacific, saw Queen Elizabeth demonstrate F-35 cross-deck interoperability with the amphibious carrier USS America. “We had VMFA-211 F-35s launch, fly several hundred miles, land on America, take on fuel, and load weapons,” says Moorhouse. “Having launched to drop weapons on a range, they recovered to America for another suck of gas before returning to Queen Elizabeth.

US Marine Corps F-35Bs flew cross-deck missions from USS America onto HMS Queen Elizabeth

“We do that routinely with helicopters, but to do that with a jet is a real first,” he says. “And it really excited the [US] because they could start to see for themselves how they would use F-35B in that region as part of their wider campaign plans for distributed maritime operations.

CSG21 has also given the UK an opportunity to engage with the wider F-35 community, says Moorhouse. “Early on we exercised with both Italian and Israeli F-35s. Then during our time in the Pacific, we supported the Japanese in operationalising their F-35A capability, and also introducing their B variant.

“We also undertook exercises with F-35Cs from the USS Carl Vinson air wing. It was a really good work-out for the team, proving that both UK and US F-35Bs could tank off the back of [Boeing] F/A-18s.

“Carl Vinson was really keen to work with us because we are so much further down the line of integrating and employing F-35, and all of its data and digital systems. It’s still early days for them, so it was another feather in our cap that they wanted to come to us to learn from our experience.”

Given the range at which the CSG21 was deploying, F-35B sustainment was identified as a critical challenge. “We were nervous at the outset about the [Lockheed] global support solution and how it would work,” admits Moorhouse. “We were really setting a high demand by going as far as we did.

“When we got into the [Pacific], you had the biggest laydown of F-35s to date between us, Carl Vinson, and the air wing on America. And then you put Covid over the top of that. So the challenge for Lockheed Martin was considerable.”

However, the evidence of the last six months has banished that initial nervousness. “The model has worked,” says Moorhouse. “We’re just now working through that balance of how much you need on board – in terms of low-level components and spares – and then how often do you top up those critical key parts. So that’s the drumbeat at which you need to send your auxiliary into a fleet logistics hub to maintain readiness.

“With the numbers that we have, and if you can tailor your flying rates sensibly, you can broadly speaking have 75% of the aircraft available in any one day, and the rest going through routine maintenance. So that mass gives you the flexibility, and then it’s just ensuring you have that regular pattern of stores delivery.”

Notwithstanding the challenges and constraints imposed by Covid-19, and the loss of a UK F-35B during operations in the Mediterranean on 17 November, CSG21 has largely hit or exceeded its marks.

Away from the carrier itself, there have been some other notable aviation milestones, including the first operational firing of a Thales Martlet lightweight anti-surface guided weapon from a Leonardo Helicopters Wildcat HMA2.

The Royal Navy’s Wildcat HMA2 helicopter used Thales Martlet missiles for first time during deployment

That said, there is still work to be done. In particular, the Leonardo AW101 Merlin-based Crowsnest airborne surveillance and control capability, delivered to the strike group at a baseline level, is not fully mature.

Connell acknowledges that CSG21 is just a first step. “Right now, we are only at initial operating capability. We set an ambitious headmark for this first deployment, and we’ve achieved an enormous amount already. But there is much more still to come.”

Looking ahead, a key part of capability development is understanding how and where unmanned air systems (UAS) can be integrated into the air wing.

Concept development work for what the RN is calling the Future Maritime Aviation Force (FMAF) has identified a number of roles and missions where uncrewed aviation could augment or potentially replace crewed aircraft, notably airborne early warning (AEW), persistent intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR), threat simulation and training, and maritime intra-theatre lift.

Connell cautions against mischaracterising the FMAF vision. “The Future Maritime Aviation Force is not about stopping everything we’re doing today and operating drones,” he says. “But looking to the future, we want to have a greater degree of persistence, additional mass, and increased flexibility.

“Technologies are at different levels of maturity here. We’re trying to draw out the best of crewed, remotely piloted and autonomous systems, and look at how we can blend these together. Of course, there’s a judgement in terms of when you commit – we don’t want to invest too early in the wrong capability.

“We’ve also got to be in lock-step with the Future Combat Air System,” Connell adds. “We’ve got to make sure that elements of that can operate in and around the maritime.”

Various capability-based FMAF elements have been scoped. For example, Proteus has conceived a rotary-wing UAS that can operate from the smaller decks of frigates and destroyers; Vixen is looking at fixed-wing UAS solutions that could provide AEW/ISR, and potentially augment strike; and Vampire is exploring lightweight, fixed-wing carrier-borne UAS systems.

An early FMAF demonstration, involving the operation of Qinetiq Jet Banshee 80+ target drones from Queen Elizabeth’s sister carrier HMS Prince of Wales, was completed earlier this year. This experiment was set up to demonstrate how a target system organic to the carrier could be employed to provide realistic air threat presentations to support ship self-defence training.

Jet Banshee target has been used to test aircraft carrier defences

Another line of development is exploring the introduction of a heavy-lift UAS as an intra-theatre shuttle for stores and equipment. “Maritime intra-theatre lift is not a new requirement, and the Merlin HC4 is today doing a sterling job moving people, kit and stores around the carrier strike group,” says Connell. “But it’s quite an expensive way of moving things around. So there are some stores that could, with the technology that exists today, be moved around a task group relatively easily [by a UAS]. And there is undoubtedly overlap with the Royal Marines commando force.

“We need industry’s help with all this,” he adds. “I’m hopeful that Prince of Wales will do further experimentation in 2022, both around the UK and off the US eastern seaboard.”

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2HeadsBetter
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by 2HeadsBetter »

A big thumbs up to the USMC. Unfortunately I can't find the button. :problem:

serge750
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by serge750 »

I wonder what the was ratio of operations our UK F35 vs the USMC F35....

As said a really good deployment for experiencing a good amount of aircraft - massive thumbs up to the whole personnel who contributed


Scimitar54
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Scimitar54 »

Now if that was Mare Harbour, it could be a “Forkland Gangway”

R686
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by R686 »

topman wrote: 26 Nov 2021, 18:49
Gee if the Safework Australia saw that they would have a conniption fit

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »


(Steve and Anita in Mallorca) 27th November 2021


(Steve and Anita in Mallorca) 28th November 2021

SW1
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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topman
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by topman »

Well someone is in the poo over recording that. Let the witch hunt begin!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SW1 »

topman wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 18:08 Well someone is in the poo over recording that. Let the witch hunt begin!
Vocals above that which a dog can hear I would suspect being used

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bobp
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Wow another head will roll.

Bring Deeps
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

Assuming that the covers were left in place the heads that should roll should be the ones responsible for checking that they were removed and for training the relevant crew. I wouldn't stop there. A captain gets a Court Martial if they lose their ship as they are deemed responsible for the safety of it. I am not quite sure why the same rule should not now apply where an aircraft carrier loses one of its planes due to negligence. Gone are the days when flying mishaps were a regular occurrence on carriers.

Of course accidents will always happen but you have procedures to reduce the risk of accidents. The current procedure clearly isn't fool proof and so before they burn anyone at the stake for leaking the footage the RN should think about introducing a different procedure. For example how sensible is it to require the pilot to check the plane when they may be sitting for an extended period of time waiting for a signal to launch?

I don't know how practical this is but you could add a requirement that the covers be placed in a receptacle which had a video camera trained on it linked to Flyco. For added control you could have a separate space allocated to the covers for each aircraft That way the person controlling take-off could check that the covers had been removed before authorising launch. I am sure you could also embed a small electrical device in the covers which would send an alarm if it was in the wrong location. It could be on permanently and only deactivated when placed in the holding receptacle again with a link to Flyco.

This is monumentally embarassing for the RN and a bitter blow after a very successful CSG21 but it should be seen as an opportunity to make sure things change so it can't happen again.

Transparency about failure is a rare quality in bureaucracies and institutions and the more incompetent the organisation the less transparent they are likely to be. The RN should think very carefully about invoking something like the Official Secrets Act to cover this kind of situation.

True leadership would involve admitting the error promptly and demonstrating a genuine and public commitment to make sure this doesn't happen again. I guess most of the contributors on this forum are UK taxpayers and I for one am not amused that one of our very few number of F35s has been lost to this kind of mistake.

The RN are pretty good these days at using the media to send a positive message. It's now time for them to step up and handle the difficult messages.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SW1 »

Bring Deeps wrote: 29 Nov 2021, 20:29 Assuming that the covers were left in place the heads that should roll should be the ones responsible for checking that they were removed and for training the relevant crew. I wouldn't stop there. A captain gets a Court Martial if they lose their ship as they are deemed responsible for the safety of it. I am not quite sure why the same rule should not now apply where an aircraft carrier loses one of its planes due to negligence. Gone are the days when flying mishaps were a regular occurrence on carriers.

Of course accidents will always happen but you have procedures to reduce the risk of accidents. The current procedure clearly isn't fool proof and so before they burn anyone at the stake for leaking the footage the RN should think about introducing a different procedure. For example how sensible is it to require the pilot to check the plane when they may be sitting for an extended period of time waiting for a signal to launch?

I don't know how practical this is but you could add a requirement that the covers be placed in a receptacle which had a video camera trained on it linked to Flyco. For added control you could have a separate space allocated to the covers for each aircraft That way the person controlling take-off could check that the covers had been removed before authorising launch. I am sure you could also embed a small electrical device in the covers which would send an alarm if it was in the wrong location. It could be on permanently and only deactivated when placed in the holding receptacle again with a link to Flyco.

This is monumentally embarassing for the RN and a bitter blow after a very successful CSG21 but it should be seen as an opportunity to make sure things change so it can't happen again.

Transparency about failure is a rare quality in bureaucracies and institutions and the more incompetent the organisation the less transparent they are likely to be. The RN should think very carefully about invoking something like the Official Secrets Act to cover this kind of situation.

True leadership would involve admitting the error promptly and demonstrating a genuine and public commitment to make sure this doesn't happen again. I guess most of the contributors on this forum are UK taxpayers and I for one am not amused that one of our very few number of F35s has been lost to this kind of mistake.

The RN are pretty good these days at using the media to send a positive message. It's now time for them to step up and handle the difficult messages.
Or just have the ground crew take them off, walk out and hold them up for the pilot to see if that indeed was the issue. You see it in videos all the time, it’s how they remove other before flight equipment. It is purely speculation of how the accident happened that is for the accident report to determine what the sequence of events were and what recommendations should be enacted. From the accident point of view there should be no witch hunt, it’s only if people deliberately fail to tell the truth that action would be taken.

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