Edward Snowdon

[shark bait]

Just watching the BBC's interview with Edward Snowdon an of reminded me how much of an ass he is. He has degraded our most powerful intelligence asset, reducing our early intervention ability, so putting lives at risk.

Edward Snowdon is a traitor.

[Sunk at Narvik]

I'm not at all convinced about that. If the State is monitoring all our mobile devices, switching them on/off, using them to listen in, reading our emails, monitoring our web browsing then this goes way beyond what is acceptable in a free society. The State needs to be reigned in and Snowden may turn out to be something of a hero. Yes, there are threats to our free society, but these cannot, must not, be addressed by loosing that very freedom from the State.

[arfah]

-<>-<>-<>-

[Lugzy]

@sunk at narvik
I guess it depends on your point of view , my point of view is simple ,Snowdon put lives at risk , damaged our countries security/intelligence agency's at a time of increasing world threats, he is no hero , far from it , For the last year or so he's been giving out state secrets , briefing both Russian/Chinese Intelligence/military agency's on western operations/tactics/who/were/when , and anyone who think Russian and Chinese intelligence agency's are angels need a reality check, they take it to whole new lvl,

Snowdon is a great propaganda tool for Russia , he's created a storm by fueling the public paranoia of what their Goverments are doing , stirring the pot trying to create a storm suggesting intelligence agency's listen to every bodies phone convo , and read there emails everyday lol, my opinion is simple if you've got nothing to hide then what's the problem , I'm sure these type are tactics are used on ppl of interest , who could be a threat to our countries national security and tbh I'm glad they are ,

the truth is the public only hear about maybe 1-2 threats to our country and our ppl by terrorist which have been stopped every year , but in reality there are hundreds if not thousands of attacks which have been stopped by our intelligence agencies , and i am thankful they are there doing their job , I'd hate to think of the loss of life if they wasn't . And if they want to listen to me ordering a pizza then that's fine

The best laugh I had was reading of Snowdons anger at not been offered a plea deal by the US Government , my deal would be simple , electric chair or firing squad !!!!!!

[raven111]

Surely it can't be a coincidence he's been wheeled back out after we criticised what the Russians were doing in Syria.

[Sunk at Narvik]

Its not a matter of "If you have nothing to hide..." though is it? The allegations are extremely serious, gross violations of privacy by State Agencies claiming national interest. Now, we all know that freedom isn't free- hundreds of thousands of people from the UK died fighting for these freedoms within living memory, going to war, being bombed, being sunk. What do we face today? Some disgruntled teens with a bomb making kit- and we are literally throwing our freedoms away to defend ourselves from pin prick irritating attacks that whilst "terrorism" will certainly never threaten the existence of the country itself. Our forefathers would think us stark staring mad.

You cannot defend freedom with State monitoring of private individuals lives.

[Lugzy]

Its not a matter of "If you have nothing to hide..." though is it? The allegations are extremely serious, gross violations of privacy by State Agencies claiming national interest. Now, we all know that freedom isn't free- hundreds of thousands of people from the UK died fighting for these freedoms within living memory, going to war, being bombed, being sunk. What do we face today? Some disgruntled teens with a bomb making kit- and we are literally throwing our freedoms away to defend ourselves from pin prick irritating attacks that whilst "terrorism" will certainly never threaten the existence of the country itself. Our forefathers would think us stark staring mad.

You cannot defend freedom with State monitoring of private individuals lives.

The problem is have you seen the damage a brain washed disgruntled teen can do with a bomb , or weapon if he chooses to use it in a public space ? Let me give you a pointer ----- carnage , death , destruction . Look what happened in London or in France , Spain , morroco and around the world , no conventional army was used just a few terrorists did that , times have changed , warfare as changed , technology as changed , so we must change the way confront these threats .

The values we have today the freedom which as you rightly say thousands have died defending including many from my own family are the same freedoms our enemy are using against us , the wars of the past were in many ways a lot clearer , today's enemy are walking our own streets , they are mixed into ethnic communities like it or not they are here , they know our legal system, they know how to use media , and the latest equipment , and how to work our system ,

right now extreme clerics preach hatred on our streets in our capital , groups of extremist supporters shout vile, hate filled rubbish at our troops returning Home , while our police stand bye unable to do anything to stop it because our laws say they can't , my question is , is this what all those ppl fought and died for ?

If our security forces target these scum and are able to hack there phone , computer or anything else I for one say it's worth it , and to pick up the point made by another member it's not just UK or US intelligence agency's that can do this , but Russian , Chinese , Taliban , Isis and countless other security forces or terrorist groups around the world can too ,

If you've seen the smug grin on Snowdons face he knows exactly what he's doing spreading unconfirmed rumours for the benefit of his Russian protectors ,to cause outrage and paranoia amongst the ppl of the west , he's a traitor and a propaganda tool , and ppl need to remember that ,

[Tiny Toy]

right now extreme clerics preach hatred on our streets in our capital , groups of extremist supporters shout vile, hate filled rubbish at our troops returning Home , while our police stand bye unable to do anything to stop it because our laws say they can't , my question is , is this what all those ppl fought and died for ?

Well, they fought and died for freedom of speech and freedom of religion, so yes.

[bobp]

Without doubt this person will have signed the US version of the Official Secrets Act. As such he is 100 percent a traitor deserving whatever he gets. The same applies to the soldier who sold secret documents to the wiki leaks founder Assange.

[Lugzy]

right now extreme clerics preach hatred on our streets in our capital , groups of extremist supporters shout vile, hate filled rubbish at our troops returning Home , while our police stand bye unable to do anything to stop it because our laws say they can't , my question is , is this what all those ppl fought and died for ?

Well, they fought and died for freedom of speech and freedom of religion, so yes.

Got the feeling this is going off topic fast , so I'll cut it short , to members or supporters of extremist ideologies such as ISIS , freedom of speech and freedom of religion is everything they hate and what they aim to destroy if they ever get the chance , but they know those same values can be used to hide behind in this country as they continue to spread their poison , which they do , so as I said they use our values against us .

I guess everyone as there reasons why they serve in our armed forces , but i remember that question being asked to my grandfather a Burma veteran , his reply was " I fought for you (pointing around the room ) my family ,, and for my friends who were there with me , "

[seaspear]

In 1655 Cromwell appointed John Thurlowe his spymaster as the postmaster general who as described in a secret room had a team to open mail .,a minor scandal broke out in the 1840s over the UK government opening the mail of an individual at the behest of the Austrian government .
G.C&C.S in 1919 were a monitoring body that had access to private cables and telegrams this secret was disclosed in 1967, this organisation later moved to Bletchley for WW2 and were the forerunner of GCHQ, the point I am trying to make is the government has tried to have access to the communications of suspected enemies for a long time ,its just the amount of information it has to sieve through has greatly increased , An issue with individuals who believe their ethics dictate thir actions and dont believe they are answerable, often show delusions of self importance or moral justification bodering inflated ego.

[Sunk at Narvik]

"An issue with individuals who believe their ethics dictate thir actions and dont believe they are answerable, often show delusions of self importance or moral justification bodering inflated ego."

I don't agree. We need contrarian individuals to avoid us falling into the easy ways of groupthink. Privacy, rights, freedoms, should not be given up so easily in the face of a "threat" that will not in any circumstances challenge our existence as a country. Will this make the work of the police and intelligence services harder? Yes of course it will but these "agencies" are not above the law and we must not throw away centuries of precedent simply because a kid is surfing something dodgy in his bedroom for kicks. That's pure paranoia and Orwellian.

[seaspear]

"Privacy rights and freedom given up" to which were you refering to ,that he shelters in a country known for its espionage and lack of ethical practices and legal rights suggests hypocrisy ,does anyone suggest his exposure of techniques has not made the interception of dangerous groups much harder , the victims of which have a right to life, snowdon arrogantly believed he knew better than anyone else .

[Sunk at Narvik]

It would be useful to separate Snowden the person from the activities he has whistleblown about. Of course, restricting the ability of various "agencies" to monitor our ramblings may hinder them somewhat, but what is it they were set up to defend?

There are alternatives to the unrestricted State surveillance of the general population. For example we should be looking at control of our borders and our policy of letting anyone who fancies it settle here as of right. We should be crystal clear about what we stand for and only let in people who share those common beliefs.

[seaspear]

Denying access to those whose views dont correspond would require the ability to determine them particularly if they were detrimental ,how should the U.K or any government do this if not by surveillance

[Tiny Toy]

... we should be looking at control of our borders and our policy of letting anyone who fancies it settle here as of right. We should be crystal clear about what we stand for and only let in people who share those common beliefs.

We need contrarian individuals to avoid us falling into the easy ways of groupthink.

These two statements together are oxymoronic.

[Sunk at Narvik]

Not at all, you either believe in free association, freedom of speech, a free press, privacy, freedom of religion, legal rights, an independent judiciary, elective government, or you don't. This is a liberal democracy- lets keep it that way.

Democracy requires free thinkers and contrarians.

We want to avoid this surely?

"…by means of ever more effective methods of mind-manipulation, the democracies will change their nature; the quaint old forms—elections, parliaments, Supreme Courts and all the rest—will remain. The underlying substance will be a new kind of non-violent totalitarianism. All the traditional names, all the hallowed slogans will remain exactly what they were in the good old days. Democracy and freedom will be the theme of every broadcast and editorial—but Democracy and freedom in a strictly Pickwickian sense. Meanwhile the ruling oligarchy and its highly trained elite of soldiers, policemen, thought-manufacturers and mind-manipulators will quietly run the show as they see fit."

Brave New World.

[Tiny Toy]

You're ignoring the fact that freedom of speech implies the freedom to disagree that all of the things you wrote are desirable. Elective government - is it really any better for the average person than feudalism? Probably most people wouldn't see much difference in terms of their actual rights and responsibilities. You have your idea of which of these things is important, and I have mine. If you police me and throw me out of the country for not conforming to your specific ideas, you didn't grant me freedom of speech and thought, and you're going to end up with only people who think the same way as you, i.e. groupthink, the thing you say you don't want.

[Sunk at Narvik]

"If you police me and throw me out of the country for not conforming to your specific ideas, you didn't grant me freedom of speech and thought"

Debate away, you'll only cross the line into criminal activity if you start throwing bombs at me. Elizabeth said it wasn't her role to look into peoples hearts but only judge them by their actions. My fear is that these "agencies" will increasingly be looking into our hearts, via our web postings and conversations and will judge us accordingly.

[Sunk at Narvik]

I disagree, state surveillance of the entire population is a terrible solution to an easy problem to fix, it was Queen Elizabeth who stated she "had no desire to make windows into mens souls". What we think is no business of the State and we should fight any measures aimed at unrelenting State surveillance of our activities, provided of course they are lawful activities.

Which brings me to the answer to the problem- our laws. It would seem entirely reasonable to put a series of questions to applicants for British citizenship to ensure they understand the implications of laws we have arrived at over the centuries which form the foundation of our present liberal democracy, with the sanction that if they are found to be breaking those laws during a lengthy period of probation they face expulsion to their country of origin.

[seaspear]

I dont believe people break the law generally out of lack of knowledge of the laws and even cultural way of life but because of a disinterest in the laws that govern us , its easy to postulate that if we removed the means to monitor electronic communications in western countries we might have more freedom in expression but if these means of checks and balances were removed would the enemies of western societies revert to their usage again without concern.Donald Trump an individual who has many opinons that people would prefer who not share in the U.K does he have the right to free speach , Edward S. did not think through the consequences of his actions, perhaps believing his ethics were of a higher order than anyone elses or perhaps self importance and grandisement stroked his ego

[Pseudo]

I don't think that it's a lack of understanding of the law that's the problem, I think it's more to do with having no stake in society or feeling in some way excluded from it. It might well be that part of the answer is a mandatory Duke of Edinburgh Award style youth programme combined with some sort of nationally organised adult volunteering programme. Though I don't really know, it's a complex issue that there isn't a silver bullet cure for.

[IrishT]

We simply don't know what Snowden told China or Russia, that was the entire point of trying to grill him - he was saying stuff that shouldn't have been known.

I am conflicted in this. On the one hand, a Government should be open with its citizens and needs to be reigned in to respect the rights of its citizens. On the other hand, in a Napoleonic sense, sometimes the liberty of individuals must be given up to protect the collective liberties. It is morally right to suspend liberties and freedoms for a short period of time to ensure the long-term survival of those liberties. It is somewhat hypocritical for the UK to espouse a belief in transparency and democracy around the world, when doing the complete opposite at home.

Snowden doesn't seem like someone who blew the whistle out of self-interest, but now that he has blown it, he's made a pact with the devil and will have to parrot everything the Kremlin wants him to say - otherwise he's going to be facing a long, hard stint like Bradley Manning.

All in all, I'm torn between the Government's culpability in invading the privacy and freedom of the citizens, and the necessity to suspend ideals.

[seaspear]

Lets not forget that governments were monitoring terrorist organisation s by means of techniques that now that terrorists are of aware thanks to snowden make it so much harder to prevent their attacks ,governments monitor for internet child pornography should this also be considered an intrusion

[IrishT]

Lets not forget that governments were monitoring terrorist organisation s by means of techniques that now that terrorists are of aware thanks to snowden make it so much harder to prevent their attacks ,governments monitor for internet child pornography should this also be considered an intrusion

That's a logical fallacy. The Government doesn't gather your phone calls in relation to child pornography, yet that is exactly what GCHQ does relating to terrorism as a default.