Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote: 25 Jun 2023, 18:10
Tempest414 wrote: 25 Jun 2023, 13:15
RunningStrong wrote: 25 Jun 2023, 12:48
Tempest414 wrote: 25 Jun 2023, 09:04 If the UK Army had a fleet mix of say

600 Ajax
900 Boxer
1200 Patria 6x6

It could then get its head down to designing and building a new 4x4 replacement for Foxhound , Husky and Jackal with an order for say 1200 vehicles plus
Or just build Eagles/Bushmaster? Both companies would be willing to setup manufacturing in UK with a large order.
Just for me it would be good for the UK to design and build a new vehicle from the ground up to keep the capability we could build Boxer and then keep the factory going with the build of the 4x4 vehicle
I don't disagree. Unfortunately Foxhound and HMV have both proven to be capable but expensive platforms with limited exports. However if they could both be developed for manufacturing with hybrid drives I'd consider them to be good options. Foxhound might need enlarging somewhat.
Yes but both HMV and Foxhound were limited runs of 400 or so. So maybe a run of 1200 would help bring the price down some what

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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I wonder if this MRV 2 selection and contract will be signed before the next election.

The Tories know they are on the way out so not much stopping them from signing up to expensive fixed defence contracts similar to what labour did with the carriers. It's bound to be an off the shelf purchase given the Ajax debacle and need to replace worn out vehicles that are spread over a range of different chassis, the maintenance and logistics costs must be an enormous waste.

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Tempest414
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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BB85 wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 14:52 I wonder if this MRV 2 selection and contract will be signed before the next election.

The Tories know they are on the way out so not much stopping them from signing up to expensive fixed defence contracts similar to what labour did with the carriers. It's bound to be an off the shelf purchase given the Ajax debacle and need to replace worn out vehicles that are spread over a range of different chassis, the maintenance and logistics costs must be an enormous waste.
Well if they do lets hope they have the sense to order Patria 6x6

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 17:35 Well if they do lets hope they have the sense to order Patria 6x6
How could Patria 6x6 could win MRV-P 2 when it is not even one of contenders for it? Realistically, Patria 6x6 has more chance as FV432 replacement.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 07:43
Tempest414 wrote: 26 Jun 2023, 17:35 Well if they do lets hope they have the sense to order Patria 6x6
How could Patria 6x6 could win MRV-P 2 when it is not even one of contenders for it? Realistically, Patria 6x6 has more chance as FV432 replacement.
My view is that things have moved on I don't see a need for MRV-P 2 anymore the time has past Patria 6x6 offers a better deal in all areas it cost the same as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster plus as said the Patria will be operated by 5 other Baltic NATO members which we would fighting along side if war comes so sheared logistic , training and upgrades would be better for us

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest 414, you are very insistent about Patria, do you have links to the company that produces them ?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 My view is that things have moved on I don't see a need for MRV-P 2 anymore ...
Sorry but that is just your view. How can you hope that they will choose something that is not even competing for current project.
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... Patria 6x6 offers a better deal in all areas it cost the same as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster ...
So can you explain me how would Patria 6x6 provide better deployment than current Boxer fleet or same one as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster would?
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... as said the Patria will be operated by 5 other Baltic NATO members which we would fighting along side if war comes so sheared logistic , training and upgrades would be better for us
And most of them will it used as support vehicle, just like vehicle that will eventually replace FV432 would be used.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:59
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 My view is that things have moved on I don't see a need for MRV-P 2 anymore ...
Sorry but that is just your view. How can you hope that they will choose something that is not even competing for current project.
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... Patria 6x6 offers a better deal in all areas it cost the same as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster ...
So can you explain me how would Patria 6x6 provide better deployment than current Boxer fleet or same one as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster would?
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... as said the Patria will be operated by 5 other Baltic NATO members which we would fighting along side if war comes so sheared logistic , training and upgrades would be better for us
And most of them will it used as support vehicle, just like vehicle that will eventually replace FV432 would be used.
Yes it is just my view and I have never said it is anything else. when it comes to Patria v Boxer it is down to money Boxer is a better vehicle but cost 4 to 5 times as much when it comes to deployment there is not much in it. As for deployment of Patria v Eagle V 6x6 there again there is not much in it as in the main this will be done by sea in any number

No matter how the 5 other members use them they will still have them and there for the Logistics , training and upgrade path could be better

As you may know I really like Bushmaster and I think we should have had 800 or so but we didn't and as I say things have moved on as you say Patria would make a good FV430 replacement but is that not what MRV-P 2 was looking to do replace some of the FV430 roles

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 09:24
sol wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:59
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 My view is that things have moved on I don't see a need for MRV-P 2 anymore ...
Sorry but that is just your view. How can you hope that they will choose something that is not even competing for current project.
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... Patria 6x6 offers a better deal in all areas it cost the same as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster ...
So can you explain me how would Patria 6x6 provide better deployment than current Boxer fleet or same one as Eagle V 6x6 and Bushmaster would?
Tempest414 wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 08:33 ... as said the Patria will be operated by 5 other Baltic NATO members which we would fighting along side if war comes so sheared logistic , training and upgrades would be better for us
And most of them will it used as support vehicle, just like vehicle that will eventually replace FV432 would be used.
Yes it is just my view and I have never said it is anything else. when it comes to Patria v Boxer it is down to money Boxer is a better vehicle but cost 4 to 5 times as much when it comes to deployment there is not much in it. As for deployment of Patria v Eagle V 6x6 there again there is not much in it as in the main this will be done by sea in any number

No matter how the 5 other members use them they will still have them and there for the Logistics , training and upgrade path could be better

As you may know I really like Bushmaster and I think we should have had 800 or so but we didn't and as I say things have moved on as you say Patria would make a good FV430 replacement but is that not what MRV-P 2 was looking to do replace some of the FV430 roles
Completely agree with Tempest here.

If the Army is going to deploy to the Sub Arctic on a much more regular basis with Finland and Sweden joining NATO how much thought has been given to this within Army vehicle procurement? How valuable could the limited amphibious capabilities of the Patria actually be in Norway, Sweden and Finland?

As commonality is proven to lower both risk and cost the decision to ignore the CV90 in favour of AJAX looks ever more ridiculous. Especially when the manufacturer is owned by a British company. Patria commonality could lower operating costs still further.

IMO Boxer is just too expensive to do everything within the current budget envelope so a mixed Boxer/Patria solution would be an affordable way to mitigate the total clusterfu@k that is British Army procurement in recent years. I don’t see any sign that lessons have been learned yet. Just more assertions leaked to the press that the RAF and Navy got more money than the ARMY when it’s clear to everyone that Army funding was prioritised through Iraq/Afghan conflicts to the detriment of the Royal Navy.

IMO the Patria 6x6 is the Army’s T31 solution hiding in clear sight.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Poiuytrewq wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 10:11 IMO Boxer is just too expensive to do everything within the current budget envelope so a mixed Boxer/Patria solution would be an affordable way to mitigate the total clusterfu@k that is British Army procurement in recent years.
I don't think anyone here is against Patria 6x6, it is a good vehicle and it would be good to use it as support platform to Boxer units, just like FV432 is to Warrior.

Issue is equipping light units, which by current plan should be equipped with MRV-P 1 and 2. Choosing Patria for this would just create a "cheap mechanised infantry", without protection level as Boxer but also not nearly as deployable as light units should be or even the Boxer unit for that matter. It is more question of orbat/role of light infantry, as with Patria 6x6, they would no longer be "light".

Having combined Boxer/Patria could be good with Boxer more for frontline roles and Patria for support than having separate Boxer and Patra battalions which seems kind of redundant.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 10:54
Poiuytrewq wrote: 27 Jun 2023, 10:11 IMO Boxer is just too expensive to do everything within the current budget envelope so a mixed Boxer/Patria solution would be an affordable way to mitigate the total clusterfu@k that is British Army procurement in recent years.
I don't think anyone here is against Patria 6x6, it is a good vehicle and it would be good to use it as support platform to Boxer units, just like FV432 is to Warrior.

Issue is equipping light units, which by current plan should be equipped with MRV-P 1 and 2. Choosing Patria for this would just create a "cheap mechanised infantry", without protection level as Boxer but also not nearly as deployable as light units should be or even the Boxer unit for that matter. It is more question of orbat/role of light infantry, as with Patria 6x6, they would no longer be "light".

Having combined Boxer/Patria could be good with Boxer more for frontline roles and Patria for support than having separate Boxer and Patra battalions which seems kind of redundant.
For me as I have said I would dump the current MRV-P 1&2 and look to design and build a new 4x4 for the light infantry and Light recce strike roles to replace Foxhound and Jackal
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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UK Boxer progress

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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First UK produced Boxers arrived at Millbrook for testing

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Fitted with mirrors and gun....


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Day two of trials at MILLBROOK...

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Boxer NEMO had live fire demo on Salisbury Plain

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by bobp »

Like the camo scheme on the cab. Be good to have a few in service but its still in development.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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bobp wrote: 26 Jul 2023, 09:13 Like the camo scheme on the cab. Be good to have a few in service but its still in development.
I think that camo is standard Rheinmetall for their presentation vehicles.

Among first 528 ordered Boxers, there are 28 designated as mortar carriers. If I am not wrong, currently these will carry mortar and its crew, which will be used outside vehicle itself (it is listed as sub-variant of Armoured Personal Carrier). There are two versions of the mounted mortar currently in develop, one with RM Ragnar 120mm (could also use 81mm) with open top configuration and, of course, NEMO with a turret. Both version existing only as prototype as, so far, none of Boxer users is using any of them. There is still a time for the UK to switch to one of these two options, but so far, there is no indication that something like that could happen.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Coming soon for DSEi 2023...

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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If they can do a full evaluation, could be interesting...


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Worth a read.

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