Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 09:42 So at the moment out out some 1200 armoured vehicles ordered there is only 178 APC with 85 Boxer APC and 93 Ajax APC
I really do not understand why are you counting Ares here. I am not sure how many Scimitars were in the recce regiment, but there were at least 22 of them. So for 4 recce (Ajax) regiments there should be at least 88 Ares which covers for almost all ordered.

Also 85 infantry Boxers is just for first 523 ordered. There was no braking by version published for additional 100, but I guess some additional infantry should be included, question is how many and should it be enough.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 19:05
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Apr 2023, 09:42 So at the moment out out some 1200 armoured vehicles ordered there is only 178 APC with 85 Boxer APC and 93 Ajax APC
I really do not understand why are you counting Ares here. I am not sure how many Scimitars were in the recce regiment, but there were at least 22 of them. So for 4 recce (Ajax) regiments there should be at least 88 Ares which covers for almost all ordered.

Also 85 infantry Boxers is just for first 523 ordered. There was no braking by version published for additional 100, but I guess some additional infantry should be included, question is how many and should it be enough.
178 APC's out of 1200 armoured vehicles ordered is just a statement of fact where they going I never said because I don't know you maybe right that Ares are going to the Armoured Cav

the old CVR(T) cavalry units had 66 vehicles with 27 Scimitars with 3 to a troop , 3 troops in a sqn , 3 recce sqn's in a regt

As said we need 42 Boxer APC's to a Mech Battalion with 5 battalions = 210 needed with no spears

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 09:03 the old CVR(T) cavalry units had 66 vehicles with 27 Scimitars with 3 to a troop , 3 troops in a sqn , 3 recce sqn's in a regt
Recce squadron had 3 troops of Scimitar each with 4 vehicles and support troop with 4 Spartan APC and 12 dismounts. Also in Command & Support squadron, there were 3 guided-weapon troops, each with 4 Spartan APC and 4 Javelins, and Surveillance troop with either 1 or, more probable, 6 (depending on source) Spartan APC and 18 to 24 dismounts. So there were between 25-30 Spartan APC per recce regiment. Ares is replacement for Spartan and will took its place in orbat. Which means all Ares will operated by 4 Ajax regiments.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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So it is safe to say that most if not all Ajax/ Ares will go to the 4 Armoured Cavalry units and as we know we have enough Boxer APC's for 2 x Mech battalions maybe 3 if we say 40 of the extra 100 were APC's

So when we say we need 90 Boxers per Battalion we are somewhere between 85 and 130 ACP's short for the 5 Battalions depending on how the 100 extra break down

sol
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 09 Apr 2023, 16:47 So it is safe to say that most if not all Ajax/ Ares will go to the 4 Armoured Cavalry units and as we know we have enough Boxer APC's for 2 x Mech battalions maybe 3 if we say 40 of the extra 100 were APC's

So when we say we need 90 Boxers per Battalion we are somewhere between 85 and 130 ACP's short for the 5 Battalions depending on how the 100 extra break down
Yes, most of the Ajax fleet will go for 4 recce regiments, with some for recce platoons for 2 armoured regiments (possibly some Athena too), and 1st Regiment RHA and 19th & 26th Regiment RA.

Those 85 APC Boxers might not be enough for even two battalion. For example AT platoon would also require infantry version, as there is no specific version for that and overwatch is not ordered. In Warrior battalion, AT platoon operated 8 Warriors and 1 Spartan. With 1 for 1 replacement, 8 to 9 infantry versions of Boxer should be dedicated to this.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Could someone provide us with the sourse for the numbers of each type of Boxer being purchased in the initial order. AS far as I remember we have place orders for four variants of the platform, with the APC/Infantry variants being the basis for further variants.

The Defence Select Committee have been told that the Army will be the main beneficiary of the revisited Command Paper, and there should be additioanl orders for new equipment and support resources as well as an aim to speed up delivery of the new platforms and equipment.

Initial orders appears to have been placed for Archer 155mm SPGs which should replace the AS-90 which appears to havefound a new home in Ukraine. Boxer is going to be a long running production scheme at te two sites involved, allowing the Army to change the number to be built as well as what Mission Modules will be needed, something it is working on with its trials unit. The two planned Heavy BCTs are going to be the biggest user of the Boxer followed by its use in the Recce/Deep Fires BCT.

If we want to Motorise one or more of the Light BCTs as well as the planned Rangers, a lighter, cheaper platform should be acquired, ideally on being equipped with the BVS10 and trained in Arctic warfare to operate up north as a complete Brigade.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 6-04/10208

As for lighter and cheaper vehicles, wasn’t that what MIV was supposed to be in the first place?
I’ve never been convinced that Boxer was the right answer.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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So as said what I see is enough APC's and other kit for 2 x Battalions if working on

42 x APC from the 85 ICV
12 x C&C from the 123 C2V & C2U
8 x Mortar from the 28 Mortar MCV
8 x Recce from the 62 Recce/ FSV
9 x Over watch from the 62 Recce / FSV
8 x Engineer from the 60 ESV

this works out to be 87 vehicles per Battalion

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Lord Jim wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 02:54 Initial orders appears to have been placed for Archer 155mm SPGs which should replace the AS-90 which appears to havefound a new home in Ukraine.
It is interim solution as UK is just buying Archers which Sweden ho;d in their storage. MFP will replace both AS-90 and Archer.
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 10:34 9 x Over watch from the 62 Recce / FSV
Overwatch is not ordered and not included into 62 Recce/FSV. AT platoon will use infantry variant which will carry teams of Javalin operators. Just like Ares will in recce regiments.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 11:47
Lord Jim wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 02:54 Initial orders appears to have been placed for Archer 155mm SPGs which should replace the AS-90 which appears to havefound a new home in Ukraine.
It is interim solution as UK is just buying Archers which Sweden ho;d in their storage. MFP will replace both AS-90 and Archer.
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 10:34 9 x Over watch from the 62 Recce / FSV
Overwatch is not ordered and not included into 62 Recce/FSV. AT platoon will use infantry variant which will carry teams of Javalin operators. Just like Ares will in recce regiments.
Still 9 vehicles out of 62 Recce / FSV group plus they could order just the Overwatch module for these vehicles down the line

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:26 Still 9 vehicles out of 62 Recce / FSV group plus they could order just the Overwatch module for these vehicles down the line
How can you take 9 vehicles out of 62 for role that they are not intended to do? Do you think the British Army ordered 62 Recce / FSV variants without reason?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:59
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:26 Still 9 vehicles out of 62 Recce / FSV group plus they could order just the Overwatch module for these vehicles down the line
How can you take 9 vehicles out of 62 for role that they are not intended to do? Do you think the British Army ordered 62 Recce / FSV variants without reason?
As you say within the 62 Recce / FSV vehicles some will be for the ATGW troop's. But as I have said in the past we could move Javelin onto the RWS mounts and replace the ATGW troop with a Overwatch troop same amount of vehicles more ready fire missiles greater firepower in depth like so

dismounted troops with CG M4 or NLAW
APC's with Javelin
FSV's with brimstone Overwatch

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 13:08 As you say within the 62 Recce / FSV vehicles some will be for the ATGW troop's. But as I have said in the past we could Javelin onto the RWS mounts and replace the ATGW troop with a Overwatch troop same amount of vehicles more ready fire missiles greater firepower in depth like so
Sorry but I have not said that. None of those 62 is intended for ATGW platoon. Javelins mounted on RWS will not be part of battalion AT platoon, just like Bradley IFV with TOW missiles is still an infantry vehicle. AT platoon will have dismounted AT teams. Unless orbat change or order for Boxer variants change, battalion AT platoon will use infantry variant Boxer, just like Ares will be used for the same role in the recce regiments.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 12:59 Do you think the British Army ordered 62 Recce / FSV variants without reason?
Yes?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 13:18
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 13:08 As you say within the 62 Recce / FSV vehicles some will be for the ATGW troop's. But as I have said in the past we could Javelin onto the RWS mounts and replace the ATGW troop with a Overwatch troop same amount of vehicles more ready fire missiles greater firepower in depth like so
Sorry but I have not said that. None of those 62 is intended for ATGW platoon. Javelins mounted on RWS will not be part of battalion AT platoon, just like Bradley IFV with TOW missiles is still an infantry vehicle. AT platoon will have dismounted AT teams. Unless orbat change or order for Boxer variants change, battalion AT platoon will use infantry variant Boxer, just like Ares will be used for the same role in the recce regiments.
So what are the Recce / Fire support vehicle sub's type of the 200 APC group doing if not Recce and AT ?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 13:42 So what are the Recce / Fire support vehicle sub's type of the 200 APC group doing if not Recce and AT ?
Who said that they won't do recce? Is the recce platoon same as AT platoon?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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sol wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 14:46
Tempest414 wrote: 14 Apr 2023, 13:42 So what are the Recce / Fire support vehicle sub's type of the 200 APC group doing if not Recce and AT ?
Who said that they won't do recce? Is the recce platoon same as AT platoon?
why would one order 62 vehicle for say 6 Recce troops when we only have enough APC's for 2 battalions max. Also if all 62 were for Recce only why put Recce/FSV why not just say recce this could be as simple as 31 Recce and 31 AT/ Fire support along with the 28 Mortar and 60 Engineer section vehicles it just sounds to me like enough APC sub types for 2 Battalions

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

If one was to be optimistic, the fact hat few APCs have been ordered allows fututre purchases of a platform with a more heavily armed Mission Module.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Looks like Boxer with NEMO could carry 60 rounds while with Ragnarok just 40.



Ammo capacity for Boxer with Ragnarok seems quite low, considering that smaller vehicle like M1064 is carrying 69 shells and even M1129 (Stryker) has 60 shells.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Little J »

Thoughts?


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Little J wrote: 21 Jun 2023, 09:49 Thoughts?

This is not the first time that Boxer with RT60 is shown.

Do I think that infantry version needs stronger weapon than 50 cal? Yes
Is it RT60 best choice? Not sure.

If CT40 is preferred than some other solution might be better option, or building a new turret. It is questionable if it could be implemented into RT60 as I don't think it is ever tried. If 30mm is good enough than why not. If the Army don't want missiles from turret than some smaller/simplier turret, like RT20 could be just fine.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

Yes RT60 was first fitted in 2021 for a ME state it is a step in the right way but as said above is RT60 the best would the Warrior upgrade turret be a better place to start with CTA-40 fitted

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

Tempest414 wrote: 21 Jun 2023, 17:15 Yes RT60 was first fitted in 2021 for a ME state it is a step in the right way but as said above is RT60 the best would the Warrior upgrade turret be a better place to start with CTA-40 fitted
To go with the Warrior turret you'd have to take the hit to internal volume since it was manned and through-deck.
It fit on top of a Patria well enough though.
Image

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 21 Jun 2023, 17:15 ... would the Warrior upgrade turret be a better place to start with CTA-40 fitted
This is not testing for the UK. Outside two Warriors CSP not scrapped, it is questionable if there is a single operational turret left to be used for testing. And I doubt they will either pull one from museum or dismantle one in the Defence Academy for that. Also it is a manned turret, much heavier than remote one, and it would reduce number of dismounts significantly, to just 4 to 6. Fox example Australian Boxer CRV only has 4 dismounts.

There are other possibilities with CTA-40, like Nexter remote turret. But UK should first at least show some interest in up-gunning its Boxer, which, so far, is lacking.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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On my tea break and just seen this...


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