Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

Lord Jim wrote: 18 Sep 2022, 23:54 According to the uncorroborated sources on YouTube, Ukraine is placing an order of between fifteen and eighteen Boxer RCH155 Wheeled SP 155mm Gun, hoping for delivery within the next twelve months. IF the RCH actually enters production as a result, it could possibly have an impact on the British Army's Mobile Fires programme, with the RCH155 no longer being only a demonstrator.
There are a lot of things according to uncorroborated sources on youtube, including the earth being flat and the world being controlled by lizard people.

It would be nice to include the links to what you are citing.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by mr.fred »

Look, here it is with some sources cited:
https://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/forum/ge ... #post37728

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

mr.fred wrote: 19 Sep 2022, 14:07 Look, here it is with some sources cited:
https://www.thefifthcolumn.xyz/forum/ge ... #post37728
Ukraine appears to be prime time TRL9 opportunity.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

What is a person to do? IF one clearly states that a post is based on sources that cannot be verified, it is automatically dismissed as having no basis in reality, and to state something otherwise without hard facts to support it is vilified even more. I suppose I will have to find a source in teh Ukranian MoD with access to the actual papers before posting something like this anytime soon.

Whatever happened to someone posting something and it being treated as the begiving is a discussion where other people would dig further for relevant information that supported of corrected the initial post. The level of accuracy some people want is simply not available through unclassified sources.

In fact, I enjoy being constructively criticized and learning something new. I definitely do not like being accused of deliberately trying to deceive members The former is what makes Forums so much fun, the latter is for those, actually I had better leave it there as I do not want to write something similar to what they would.
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

It would help if you actually posted links to your sources that can't be verified. At least then they can be judged on their merits.

You seem to enjoy the criticism so much that you've complained about it at every opportunity.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Boxer with Brimstone launcher (just a mockup tho)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

We're not doing the low/common-profile overwatch thing anymore then? Let's get it done.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

I will try to post links in future to support any CLAIMS I may make. As for criticism, there is a huge difference between constructive criticism by whish one can learn, and criticism that is aggressive and from which nobody learns anything except that the forum is becoming a less friendly place.

Anyway, I will draw a line under this chain of thought and ger back to the thread's subject.

As the UK appears to be adding additional Boxers to the original contract, what impact do people think this may have on the MRV(P) Phase 2 programme. Could the 4th Light Mechanised BCT end up becoming a medium weight formation as its existing platforms are replaced by additional boxers yet to be order? Will we eventually replace the FV432 "Bulldogs" with Boxer to simplify maintenance and logistics through having a single platform carrying out these roles in addition to the ones already decided on?

My personal opinion is that the Army should seek to keep purchasing additional boxers to fill many of the roles that require an AFV type platform, especially as frontlines are becoming blurred even in conventional conflicts, with the use of UAVs and Special Forces. Having the Command variant of the Boxer already on order, it could form the basis of signals or EW for example. A Bridgelayer would allow Boxer equipped units to cross water obstacles and for a bridgehead to facilitate the construction of a crossing with greater load carry capacity to allow platforms up to and including MBI's to cross.

The version of the Boxer we are Purchasing has the latest more powerful engine and other improvements and will be a fully networked digital platform, with the generating power to cope with additional systems and/or weapons to be installed. The platform has had a multitude of different weapon and equipment configurations trialled and tested at the OEM's expensed, something we should take advantage of. In addition, I believe the British Army has two Battalions testing the Boxer, using Mastiffs' amongst other platforms as stand ins,, how best to use it and which capabilities are essential or desirable. in order for this to be carried out.

In a nutshell I believe that Boxer, together with the Foxhound and its replacement should become the core platforms of the British Army. With a slight increase in the number of Challenger 2 to be up graded we could form three type 44 Armoured Regiments which together with Boxer equipped Recce and Mechanised Infantry units should allow the formation of three Heavy Mechanised BCTs which together with the planned Deep Fires BCT would form a rejuvenated 3rd (UK) Mechanised Division. This would mainly be used as our core contribution to NATO's ground forces. A rejuvenated 1st (UK) Division would then have responsibility for operation outside Central Europe, covering NATO's northern flank as well as those further afield. 6th (UK) Division would cover operations by the UK's Special Forces, regular and reserve together with the new Ranger Regiment plus providing EW, SIGINT, and cyber capabilities in support of other UK and NATO formations. Boxer would be used in my opinion, by those units in 6th (UK) Division that would be attached to either 3rd or 1st Division, and at least one Battalion in each of the Light BCTs in 1st Division to provide a more heavily armed and better protected core in each.

Use of the Boxer platform could go even further, but the above should be enough to start with.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Little J »

I love this Boxer/Brimstone idea... Whats the betting that the MoD poo-hoo's it?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

British Boxer mortar module first fire test. 120mm mortar was used

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/british ... irst-time/
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Will be nice to discover whether this is simply a Uk run design and develop programme for the Boxer in general or on aimed to meets a British Arny requirement. Personally, I hope it is the latter.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by sol »

Video of the Boxer with mortar module firing


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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote: 23 Sep 2022, 01:06 Will be nice to discover whether this is simply a Uk run design and develop programme for the Boxer in general or on aimed to meets a British Arny requirement. Personally, I hope it is the latter.
The understanding is that a dismounted mortar carrier is already part of the BOXER contract and that this is an attempt to up-sell an integrated mortar whilst also a first effort from the UK design team.

https://www.janes.com/defence-news/news ... tar-module

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

I cannot understand the logic of having a Boxer that carries a Mortar that can only be used when dismounted! IT almost sounds like a Bean Counter exercise to save a few pennies. Having a SP Mortar that can be used dismounted if required to is one thing, but this idea, for Mechanised Formations is ridiculous
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SKB »


(Forces News) 25th September 2022
The latest Boxer vehicle variant, equipped with Brimstone precision-guided missiles, has been unveiled. The British Army is set to buy 623 Boxers and the new Overwatch variant is fitted with eight of the missiles - able to hit enemy armour up to 12 miles away.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Article suggests this is a variant on order, does it not?

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

What is useful is the clearer understanding of the Boxer Mortar variant, showing a much more conventional installation allowing the Mortar to be fired from the platform. Being able to use the same mountings for either a 81mm or 120mm Mortar is also very useful as is ease of installation/removal meaning there is not a need for a specialist variant.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote: 25 Sep 2022, 22:54 What is useful is the clearer understanding of the Boxer Mortar variant, showing a much more conventional installation allowing the Mortar to be fired from the platform. Being able to use the same mountings for either a 81mm or 120mm Mortar is also very useful as is ease of installation/removal meaning there is not a need for a specialist variant.
The 81mm integrated mortar was shown at DSEI last year.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by SD67 »

sol wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 00:29
Lord Jim wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 19:55 AS for wheeled Boxer replacing tracked platforms like Fv432, CVR(T) platforms like the Sultan and Spartan, Warrior. Against all of these it wil be cheaper to operate, maintain and train crews on. The modular system will make maintaining the fleets of Boxers more efficient.
How much is a "price" of one Boxer? Original contract for 523 vehicles is worth £2.8 billion, which would give £5.3 million per vehicle. Which is almost twice as much as AMPV which is replacing M113 in US Army. So I guess the British Army does not have money for new IFVs but it should purchase instead a really expensive ambulances and command vehicles. Now compared that for example with Latvia procurement of 200 Patria 6x6 for €200 million, or £171 million. Same vehicle that German intend to replace their Fuchs fleet.
I agree and think there is a need for a cheaper vehicle to replace all the old Bulldogs in support roles. The Patria 6x6 is a million plus change per unit, available now. 2000 Boxers is fantasy IMHO, even with the planned budget uplift. There seems to be quite a gap between a Foxhound / Jackal at 7 tonnes and Boxer at 40

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by RunningStrong »

SD67 wrote: 26 Sep 2022, 16:51
sol wrote: 27 Jun 2022, 00:29
Lord Jim wrote: 26 Jun 2022, 19:55 AS for wheeled Boxer replacing tracked platforms like Fv432, CVR(T) platforms like the Sultan and Spartan, Warrior. Against all of these it wil be cheaper to operate, maintain and train crews on. The modular system will make maintaining the fleets of Boxers more efficient.
How much is a "price" of one Boxer? Original contract for 523 vehicles is worth £2.8 billion, which would give £5.3 million per vehicle. Which is almost twice as much as AMPV which is replacing M113 in US Army. So I guess the British Army does not have money for new IFVs but it should purchase instead a really expensive ambulances and command vehicles. Now compared that for example with Latvia procurement of 200 Patria 6x6 for €200 million, or £171 million. Same vehicle that German intend to replace their Fuchs fleet.
I agree and think there is a need for a cheaper vehicle to replace all the old Bulldogs in support roles. The Patria 6x6 is a million plus change per unit, available now. 2000 Boxers is fantasy IMHO, even with the planned budget uplift. There seems to be quite a gap between a Foxhound / Jackal at 7 tonnes and Boxer at 40
100% agree. Deepest pockets in the world, there's no way BOXER will bought in sufficient numbers to cover those fleets. Price will be a huge part of it.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

For me if there is enough new money for new fleets then I would like to see Boxer capped at 900 and then go for 800 Patria 6x6 and 900 to 1000 Bushmaster's plus 600 Hawkei. We would still need a armoured recce vehicle to replace Ajax if it fails to come into service
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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well, we do or did have the MRV(P) programme, whose phase two 4x4 or 6x6 platform whould be ideal for replacing the AFVs in some of the supporting roles that cannot justify being replaced by Boxer. Saying that the CVT(T) and FV432 platforms in service with Armoured and Armoured Infantry units will need the greater protection offered by Boxer, as will some support units such as Artillery. The MRV(P) will also be needed to replace the soft vehicles currently used in some roles.

Of the Boxers currently on order we will need up to 400 to equip the five planned Mechanised Infantry Battalion, which will leave around 140 Boxers from the amount currently on order to be assigned to other roles. I am sure there will be additional roles the Army will decide can be filled by Boxer, replacing existing platform which are getting long in the tooth. Boxer is an expensive platform, but it is =rated as the best protect 8x8 currently on the market and the version we are purchasing is more then capable of taking on the roles the British Army needs it to do now and in the future.

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Re: Boxer / Mechanised Infantry Vehicle (MIV)

Post by Tempest414 »

Lord Jim wrote: 28 Sep 2022, 03:08 Well, we do or did have the MRV(P) programme, whose phase two 4x4 or 6x6 platform whould be ideal for replacing the AFVs in some of the supporting roles that cannot justify being replaced by Boxer. Saying that the CVT(T) and FV432 platforms in service with Armoured and Armoured Infantry units will need the greater protection offered by Boxer, as will some support units such as Artillery. The MRV(P) will also be needed to replace the soft vehicles currently used in some roles.

Of the Boxers currently on order we will need up to 400 to equip the five planned Mechanised Infantry Battalion, which will leave around 140 Boxers from the amount currently on order to be assigned to other roles. I am sure there will be additional roles the Army will decide can be filled by Boxer, replacing existing platform which are getting long in the tooth. Boxer is an expensive platform, but it is =rated as the best protect 8x8 currently on the market and the version we are purchasing is more then capable of taking on the roles the British Army needs it to do now and in the future.
We have 623 on order as of April 22 so if 400 are needed for the infantry Battalions then that leaves 220 odd for other roles

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