Ground Based Air Defence

[Timmymagic]

Posted this in the Ukraine war thread....

Looks like we know where the 150 Towed AA guns come from now...

[wargame_insomniac]

SAAB received an order for MSHORAD for Swedish Armed Forces, based on BvS10 ATV.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/saab-se ... r-defence/

The UK had previously ordered 60*BvS10 for RM Commandos as part of joint procurement with Sweden and Germany, to replace old BvS6 vehicles.

If the UK still has any RM Commandos left after the next SDSR, then getting a few of these for UK might be a good idea, obviously funds permitting.

We do need to move towards having enough UK MSHORAD to cover any and all troops being deployed overseas as part of JEF / NATO. I fear it is currently yet another UK Capability Gap, one that needs addressing BEFORE the next Russian incursion westwards.

[Chris Werb]

Looks like we know where the 150 Towed AA guns come from now...

Hi Timmy. Do we have any better photos of this system in use in Ukraine?

[Chris Werb]

How many Skysabre batteries did the army order again, was it 24?

Sorry to disappoint you, but the number appears to be four batteries each of two troops, each with one system of one radar and three launchers. The batteries rotate so that one is always stationed in the Falklands. I suspect that two systems are permanently based there (the system was purchased purely to defend the Falklands, so it could be more systems). I am awaiting the response to an FOI request asking why our launcher vehicles do not appear to have the optronic mast fitted to the trials and export versions. I suspect the lack thereof will mean that the launchers cannot operate autonomously, so coverage of a troop is limited to the coverage (line of sight) of the Giraffe AMB radar.

[Chris Werb]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

In all honesty, what are the chances of hitting a fast moving FPV with a rifle, assuming you even know it is coming at you, regardless of what sighting system you have on your rifle?

[RunningStrong]

The Army has procured this for the moment:

https://www.army.mod.uk/news-and-events ... %20weapons.

In all honesty, what are the chances of hitting a fast moving FPV with a rifle, assuming you even know it is coming at you, regardless of what sighting system you have on your rifle?

The system controls a trigger solenoid, so the operator just moves the sites into the coincidence zone shown on the sight and hopes for the click.

[Timmymagic]

Looks like we know where the 150 Towed AA guns come from now...

Hi Timmy. Do we have any better photos of this system in use in Ukraine?

I'm afraid not. Turns out it 'might' not be the system supplied. There was a muzzle brake missing on the pic, which means it might be a Yugo built one. Still the possibility that it might be AEI was something we'd all forgotten about..

[sol]

I'm afraid not. Turns out it 'might' not be the system supplied. There was a muzzle brake missing on the pic, which means it might be a Yugo built one. Still the possibility that it might be AEI was something we'd all forgotten about..

It is ex-Yugoslav Zastava M75. Probably supplied by/originate from Slovenia or Croatia. None of those two are currently using it but there should be plenty left overs from the war as was widely used infantry support weapon at that time.

[Chris Werb]

In all honesty, what are the chances of hitting a fast moving FPV with a rifle, assuming you even know it is coming at you, regardless of what sighting system you have on your rifle?

The system controls a trigger solenoid, so the operator just moves the sites into the coincidence zone shown on the sight and hopes for the click.
[/quote]

I get how it works What I'd recommend is doing a search on "Reddit Droned Orc" and spending some time watching how attacks are conducted using bomb dropping and FPV drones.

1. A lot of the time the recipient is unaware they are being attacked right up to weapon impact or initiation.
2. FPV drones are fast - engagement times can be very short. Imagine trying to aim at something the size of a pigeon coming at you at 80mph and knowing it will take you out if you miss. Then, if you succeed, they send another one, and another one, and another one, or maybe two at the same time from opposite directions.
3. They don't necessarily fly in a straight line (a recent video showed one chasing an unfortunate recipient around and around a knocked out tank)
4. Quite a few of the recipients in Ukraine were sitting on or in moving vehicles. That's not going to increase your chance of hitting.
5. The use of this system against normal, ground targets (if doctrinally allowed) will be interesting, to say the least, from a safety perspective.

The target set/use case for this thing is going to be pretty limited and there are obvious countermeasures that can be taken against it. That said, I'm giving the MoD 8/10 for getting something out there reasonably quickly (albeit ISIS showed what a threat small commercial drones were about a decade ago). The use of this system against normal, ground targets will be interesting, to say the least, from a safety perspective.

[Chris Werb]

I'm afraid not. Turns out it 'might' not be the system supplied. There was a muzzle brake missing on the pic, which means it might be a Yugo built one. Still the possibility that it might be AEI was something we'd all forgotten about..

It is ex-Yugoslav Zastava M75. Probably supplied by/originate from Slovenia or Croatia. None of those two are currently using it but there should be plenty left overs from the war as was widely used infantry support weapon at that time.

It's definitely an M75. The M75 does have a muzzle attachment, but it's not much larger diameter than the barrel, so you can miss it in some photos.

[Chris Werb]

30×113mm not in inventory,

The M230 on the AH-64E Apache Guardian shoots it, but hopefully you won't be shooting at drones with HEDP

[Chris Werb]

This is probably old news to the rest of you, but it's the first I had heard of it.

https://euro-sd.com/2022/11/articles/26 ... n-britain/

[Chris Werb]

Is there anything in writing out there on increasing our number of Sky Sabre systems?

On 28th June 2023, Defence Procurement Minister, James Cartlidge delivered a speech at the Full Spectrum Air Defence Conference in London.

"Sky Sabre is forecast to reach full operational capability later in the year and we plan to increase the number of our launchers to equip the whole of 16th Regiment Royal Artillery."

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... conference

At the current scale of two systems per battery, that would still only mean eight systems of which at least one is permanently deployed to the Falklands. Another poster said the aim was to double the number by 2026 - that is meaningless unless you know what the quantity already in service is. If it is four, doubling only gets us to eight.

[RunningStrong]

I get how it works

I'm not entirely sure you do. It's not difficult for a person to follow a moving target through sights, but becomes challenging for the user to perform the necessary ballistic compensation for range and movement. The system does this for the user. The system is also only a firmware change away from being used on other equipment like shotguns.

You're talking about how difficult it is like it's WW1 shooting carrier pigeons.

[Caribbean]

The system is also only a firmware change away from being used on other equipment like shotguns.

Just need to pair it with a belt-fed shotgun

[Timmymagic]

I'm still confused about this...

Looks like Thales RapidRanger on URO Vamtac will be the Stormer replacement...

RapidRanger on Vamtac is alread in service in Malaysia and Indonesia so might be ease of fielding...but does seem to ignore a Gun/Missile/EW solution like the Moog RiWP, which seems daft. Hope MoD haven't reacted to Ukraine too quickly...which has its own risks as much as delaying acting...

https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/markets/ ... apidranger





Rapid Ranger is essentially Starstreak THOR from 15+ years ago...seen here in an ancient YT video on Pinzgauer.

[Ron5]

'm still confused about this...

Brought to you by the Ministry of bad decisions, how can you be confused? Especially with all the efforts to rationalize platforms seeming tossed aside along with the memories of shitty Spanish work on Ajax

[Chris Werb]

I get how it works

I'm not entirely sure you do. It's not difficult for a person to follow a moving target through sights, but becomes challenging for the user to perform the necessary ballistic compensation for range and movement. The system does this for the user. The system is also only a firmware change away from being used on other equipment like shotguns.

You're talking about how difficult it is like it's WW1 shooting carrier pigeons.

FWIW I've done a little bit of shooting over the last 45 years, moved to the part of the world I live in 22 years ago primarily to shoot and make a good portion of my living from guns. I think my reading comprehension is OK and that the manufacturers aren't lying about how the sight operates. However, I think it's legitimate to query how things would work out when you're facing what is essentially a very highly manoeuvrable, first person controlled, model aeroplane carrying an impact fused fragmentation grenade piloted by someone whose sole focus is on killing you. Would you even hear it coming and, if you did, would you have time to engage it? If you watch the real world engagements, the victims often don't see the thing coming at all or have a few seconds warning of impending doom*. The rifle (not hypothetical shotgun) is not firing shot, so the trajectory of one bullet has to coincide with a target with a profile similar in size to a woodpigeon. If you're very lucky you might get off a couple of shots. I can absolutely see a use for this thing in countering bomb dropping drones like the Baba Yaga, but observation drones can simply stand off at a greater distance and FPVs are just not going to be doable IMHO.

Only click on the following link if you are not at work and have a pretty strong stomach: https://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootageUkraine/

*I accept that the videos of engagements shown are selected to showcase successes, so there is significant bias there, but I don't think it undermines my argument significantly.

[RunningStrong]

Would you even hear it coming and, if you did, would you have time to engage it?

You're conflating detection with killing. You either need to use a different system to detect of you need to be keeping an eye out.

The rifle (not hypothetical shotgun) is not firing shot, so the trajectory of one bullet has to coincide with a target with a profile similar in size to a woodpigeon. If you're very lucky you might get off a couple of shots.

You are aware of fully automatic firing on issued rifles?

[Chris Werb]

Hi RunningStrong

It goes without saying that you have to detect something to engage it. If you watch the Russians vs these things it's surprising how close they get to them before detection, even when flying at a virtual standstill. Sometimes they are not detected at all. They can also appear from behind or within buildings, around trees or knocked out vehicles etc. Some are very quiet, so acoustic detection and cueing may not work. Radar would if it could achieve line of sight, which is a big "if", but it would potentially give the units position away and would not be cheap. Once an enemy became aware we had a detection system in place there are countermeasures he could use against it - saturation attacks, creative use of cover on the approach, thermal smoke etc. faster attack speeds etc. It's a real problem.

Yes, I am aware the current rifles/carbines mostly have selective fire. The problem is, only your first shot would count as the muzzle would tend to move further off target with each shot* for the first few shots until you regain control. At 100 metres an FPV approaching head on (best case scenario to hit the FPV, but definitely the most nerve wracking) could have a effective size in the order of 3 Minutes of Angle (effectively 3"/100 yards). Try keeping your shots in a 3 MoA circle, single shot, whilst standing on a peacetime range. The target will obviously effectively get larger as it gets closer but even a very mundane FPV drone can do 100kmh and can cross 100 metres in 3.6 seconds. Maybe you would get two "aimed" shots off. If you were lucky.

*

[Chris Werb]

I noticed a while back that the in-service Sky Sabre launcher vehicles do not have the optronic masts featured on the demonstrators and they don't appear to be set up to be easily retrofitted. That would presumably eliminate the ability of the launchers to act as SAM systems in their own right and make them totally dependent on third party target designation. I have an FOI request in about this, but I was wondering if any of you had seem anything out there about it?

[Little J]

First good look at the Supacat/Asraam combination in Ukraine...

[pko100]

I noticed a while back that the in-service Sky Sabre launcher vehicles do not have the optronic masts featured on the demonstrators and they don't appear to be set up to be easily retrofitted. That would presumably eliminate the ability of the launchers to act as SAM systems in their own right and make them totally dependent on third party target designation. I have an FOI request in about this, but I was wondering if any of you had seem anything out there about it?

If the optronic masts are not being fitted, then this is due to Sky Sabre being a BVR system. The optronics would have only been used to guide a CAMM in a self defence mode to take down a direct threat to the launcher itself. The launcher is effectively electronically invisible taking engagement quality tracks and fire control from the C2 element in the Sky Sabre battery.

[Dahedd]

First good look at the Supacat/Asraam combination in Ukraine...

Beat me too it. Was just about to post this. I reckon we should pick up some of these to supplement the Landceptor systems though maybe find a more protected (from the elements) solution for the missiles

[SW1]

Interesting thread on this subject