Ground Based Air Defence

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:I think the 'inners' for those that we have got refurbed... but the number of them in total is not much off from 10!
Given the age of the platform, you'd think the Germans would be looking to incorporate those systems into a newer more survivable platform, for the UK with the Fuch's being an orphan platform you'd think that we'd be very interested in getting it into Boxer asap.

Lord Jim
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Lord Jim »

Boxer Fan here, well yet again the swappable Mission Module rides to the rescue, as all the Germans or others have to do is develop a NBC Warfare module and bolt it on to a Boxer they already have and problem solved.

NickC
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by NickC »

RAF awarded contract to Spanish company Indra last week for one of their Lanza Long Tactical Range 25 radars, max. range ~ 210 to 240nm, to be delivered before year end.

The LTR-25 is a L-band (frequency range of ~1-2GHz with a wavelength range of ~30-15cm) solid-state 3D long range radar, planar array antenna horizontal linear elements vertically stacked, each with its own receiver with ultra low sidelobes, with frequency agility, pulse to pulse, burst to burst and wide operating bandwidth, essential for effective ECCM with an IFF with a 5 to 12 rpm rotating antenna.

Presume a software controlled time shared phased array radar, the main beam can start a track immediately upon detecting a target, since can instantly reposition the beam upon it instead of waiting for the next sweep, the single beam and or limited number being time-shared between the various duties (surveillance, tracking etc.).

(The later newer gen radars are AESA, active electronic-scan arrays, use each of the transmitters a receiver in its own right, essentially an antenna formed by thousands of independent (but co-ordinated) TRMs, transmitter receiver modules, which allows the forming of multiple independent main beams, each assigned to its own task.)

For mission required the LTR-25 adequate and no doubt less costly than latest gen long range radar eg Thales Nederland SMART-L MM, AESA with its powerful GaN TRMs and dual axis multibeam receiver tech, 400km air, 750-1,000km BMD (though mention of 2,000km instrumented range), track up to 2,000 targets.

Guessing Sampson not applicable as out of production and appears no funding to update to GaN TRMs etc

PapaGolf
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Re: Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by PapaGolf »

I’ve no idea why were supporting the Spanish economy when they behave the way they do over Gibraltar. Would much rather we supported proper allies.

Lord Jim
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Lord Jim »

Because unlike the majority of nations we deal with we believe in playing fair and by any rule laid down either by the EU or globally. Few other do, France for example.

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

CAMM-ER on the way for the Army...


Lord Jim
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Lord Jim »

Does anyone know what radar the Italian Land Ceptor ER uses?

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Does anyone know what radar the Italian Land Ceptor ER uses?
Here's the best source that I know on CAMM-ER ..

https://www.edrmagazine.eu/albatros-ng- ... m-detailed

Andy-M
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Andy-M »

Lord Jim wrote:Does anyone know what radar the Italian Land Ceptor ER uses?
Found this;

" -- the Posto Comando Modulo di Ingaggio (Command Post Engagement Module, PCMI) equipped with the X-TAR 3D search radar for the army, and
-- the Medium Advanced Air Defence System (MAADS) for the air force, which will operate with the SIRUS command post and its KRONOS LND search radar. "

here:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ssile.html

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Andy-M wrote:- the Posto Comando Modulo di Ingaggio (Command Post Engagement Module, PCMI) equipped with the X-TAR 3D search radar for the army, and
-- the Medium Advanced Air Defence System (MAADS) for the air force, which will operate with the SIRUS command post and its KRONOS LND search radar. "
About Albatros (Navy's ER) the point is made that integration with any CMS is easy (and the whole point of CAMM is that it is sensor agnostic,; the other side of CMS).

But on land? No CMS :idea:
- in our case, Saab+ Israeli bits (deconflictation of the near-airspace has been built in)
... Next question: Will it be EASY just to slot in CAMM-ER when (and if) required?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

Lord Jim
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Lord Jim »

Well found this out regarding the KRONUS Radar system. It is built by Leonardo and is the successor to the EMPAR series of Radars. It is a family of state of the art AESA radars for use both on land and sea, and we all know Leonardo can build good radars.
https://www.leonardocompany.com/en/news ... lia-kronos

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

An excellent article on Sky Sabre ..

https://corporalfrisk.com/2021/08/14/fi ... in-itsuko/

Image

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

NickC wrote:RAF awarded contract to Spanish company Indra last week for one of their Lanza Long Tactical Range 25 radars, max. range ~ 210 to 240nm, to be delivered before year end.

The LTR-25 is a L-band (frequency range of ~1-2GHz with a wavelength range of ~30-15cm) solid-state 3D long range radar, planar array antenna horizontal linear elements vertically stacked, each with its own receiver with ultra low sidelobes, with frequency agility, pulse to pulse, burst to burst and wide operating bandwidth, essential for effective ECCM with an IFF with a 5 to 12 rpm rotating antenna.

Presume a software controlled time shared phased array radar, the main beam can start a track immediately upon detecting a target, since can instantly reposition the beam upon it instead of waiting for the next sweep, the single beam and or limited number being time-shared between the various duties (surveillance, tracking etc.).

(The later newer gen radars are AESA, active electronic-scan arrays, use each of the transmitters a receiver in its own right, essentially an antenna formed by thousands of independent (but co-ordinated) TRMs, transmitter receiver modules, which allows the forming of multiple independent main beams, each assigned to its own task.)

For mission required the LTR-25 adequate and no doubt less costly than latest gen long range radar eg Thales Nederland SMART-L MM, AESA with its powerful GaN TRMs and dual axis multibeam receiver tech, 400km air, 750-1,000km BMD (though mention of 2,000km instrumented range), track up to 2,000 targets.

Guessing Sampson not applicable as out of production and appears no funding to update to GaN TRMs etc
If you want to be really annoyed...Indra's radar range is pretty much entirely based on the UK developed Marconi Martello...

Lord Jim
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Lord Jim »

Mixing CAMM and CAMM-ER within our Sky Sabre batteries would increase their capability significantly. The problem is we are buying no where near enough launch and control platforms, with barely enough to equip a single Regiment from which one battery is already deployed to the Falklands. We are therefore left with either three or four Batteries remaining to protect Army formations, Airfields and other important facilities.

We also urgently need and long range GBAD system with an ABM capability, such as Patriot of SAMP-T of which I favour the latter with its full 360 degree coverage with each launch vehicle and radar unlike Patriot or THAAD. A requirement already exists but is currently far down the priority list. We cannot simply rely on having air superiority when fighting a peer adversary and the importance given to GBAD needs to be greatly increased after years of under investment.

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

Whats interesting here is the shoulder mounted Starstreak...for a long, long time, although it was capable of being used on the shoulder, we only saw Starstreak deployed on the tripod mount or Striker. Recently we've seen shoulder mount come back into fashion with the RM using LMM and 7 AD Gp using Starstreak.

Wonder if we're looking to spread our AD a little more widely now...good if we are.


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Tempest414
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Tempest414 »

The biggest thing is seeing the UAV's too shoot them down I live under one of the French air force training areas and have spent a lot of life working with aircraft and I know the jets are over head but for the most part I can't see them

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote:Whats interesting here is the shoulder mounted Starstreak...for a long, long time, although it was capable of being used on the shoulder, we only saw Starstreak deployed on the tripod mount or Striker. Recently we've seen shoulder mount come back into fashion with the RM using LMM and 7 AD Gp using Starstreak.

Wonder if we're looking to spread our AD a little more widely now...good if we are.

No expert, but is that Starstreak or LMM being shoulder mounted? To my knowledge, Starstreak was always a 3 missile launcher (LML) for dismounted firing.

mr.fred
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by mr.fred »

RunningStrong wrote:No expert, but is that Starstreak or LMM being shoulder mounted? To my knowledge, Starstreak was always a 3 missile launcher (LML) for dismounted firing.
Given that the missiles share a common interface and guidance, it shouldn’t make much difference.
That said, I suppose the proximity fused warhead of the LMM might tolerate greater aiming errors that the “hittiles” of the HVM.

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

RunningStrong wrote:No expert, but is that Starstreak or LMM being shoulder mounted? To my knowledge, Starstreak was always a 3 missile launcher (LML) for dismounted firing.
The canisters look exactly the same so you can't really tell, they use the same CLU.
Starstreak was always capable of shoulder launch, just the same as its forbears Blowpipe, Javelin and Starburst. But for years was never seen in that role. Then RM were seen trialling Martlet (LMM) from the shoulder and suddenly it appears we're using Starstreak like that again.

The tripod is actually pretty sensible. Other systems like RBS-70 and Mistral use a similar set up. Provides stability, but in the UK's case was also tied into the use of ADAD for threat detection. Basically if you're setting up ADAD you might as well set up a 3 round launcher with some camo, you'll also get increased stability for aiming and less fatigue on the user.

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:No expert, but is that Starstreak or LMM being shoulder mounted? To my knowledge, Starstreak was always a 3 missile launcher (LML) for dismounted firing.
The canisters look exactly the same so you can't really tell, they use the same CLU.
Starstreak was always capable of shoulder launch, just the same as its forbears Blowpipe, Javelin and Starburst. But for years was never seen in that role. Then RM were seen trialling Martlet (LMM) from the shoulder and suddenly it appears we're using Starstreak like that again.

The tripod is actually pretty sensible. Other systems like RBS-70 and Mistral use a similar set up. Provides stability, but in the UK's case was also tied into the use of ADAD for threat detection. Basically if you're setting up ADAD you might as well set up a 3 round launcher as well with increased stability and less fatigue on the user.
Was there ever an ability for the user to remote control (by cable) from the launcher?

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

RunningStrong wrote:Was there ever an ability for the user to remote control (by cable) from the launcher?
No. That sort of thing went out with Swingfire and Vigilant. For a SAM you'd really need a vertical launch missile for that as you need to point the missile at the target otherwise. If you were setting up a powered traverse mechanism you're introducing a lot of cost and complexity.

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Timmymagic wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Was there ever an ability for the user to remote control (by cable) from the launcher?
No. That sort of thing went out with Swingfire and Vigilant. For a SAM you'd really need a vertical launch missile for that as you need to point the missile at the target otherwise. If you were setting up a powered traverse mechanism you're introducing a lot of cost and complexity.
Interesting. I can understand the constrained arcs, and whilst I know that MSTAR is significantly smaller, the remote cable control greatly improves survivability.

Timmymagic
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Timmymagic »

RunningStrong wrote:Interesting. I can understand the constrained arcs, and whilst I know that MSTAR is significantly smaller, the remote cable control greatly improves survivability.
To be honest its a concept that I'm surprised no-one has adopted to date. We've got elevating mast mounted radars (Giraffe), elevating E/O systems (though not ADADS). You'd have thought a SAM System parked up in a stand of trees, or buildings with only its sensors showing would be a very hard target to pick out, let alone attack. A SAM with a VL system and decent tip over speed, like CAMM, could fire vertically to clear obstructions and engage the target wilst remaining out of sight. If the missile had adjustable initial climb out so that it could be tailored for different cover even better. Using radar's or E/O systems to try and pick up such a system would be a nightmare.

Ron5
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Interesting. I can understand the constrained arcs, and whilst I know that MSTAR is significantly smaller, the remote cable control greatly improves survivability.
To be honest its a concept that I'm surprised no-one has adopted to date. We've got elevating mast mounted radars (Giraffe), elevating E/O systems (though not ADADS). You'd have thought a SAM System parked up in a stand of trees, or buildings with only its sensors showing would be a very hard target to pick out, let alone attack. A SAM with a VL system and decent tip over speed, like CAMM, could fire vertically to clear obstructions and engage the target wilst remaining out of sight. If the missile had adjustable initial climb out so that it could be tailored for different cover even better. Using radar's or E/O systems to try and pick up such a system would be a nightmare.
Image

RunningStrong
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Re: Ground Based Air Defence

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Interesting. I can understand the constrained arcs, and whilst I know that MSTAR is significantly smaller, the remote cable control greatly improves survivability.
To be honest its a concept that I'm surprised no-one has adopted to date. We've got elevating mast mounted radars (Giraffe), elevating E/O systems (though not ADADS). You'd have thought a SAM System parked up in a stand of trees, or buildings with only its sensors showing would be a very hard target to pick out, let alone attack. A SAM with a VL system and decent tip over speed, like CAMM, could fire vertically to clear obstructions and engage the target wilst remaining out of sight. If the missile had adjustable initial climb out so that it could be tailored for different cover even better. Using radar's or E/O systems to try and pick up such a system would be a nightmare.
Image
Yeah, you're not familiar with concealment concepts are you?

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