FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

[inch]

People have got to remember that Ukraine will eventually be getting a very large number of tanks from somewhere after this has resolved, maybe they go for K2 or Abrams,etc eventually.depends if get large number of German tanks or not I guess ,and looking forwards I'm suspecting Ukraine will by from someone other than Germany also in yes to come

[wargame_insomniac]

Certainly, the M1X is looking very interesting, if Uncle Sam is going to crank out 3,000, then we should just buy 148 off the shelf, diverted from US Army multi year buys, in exactly the same way we did with our excellent AH64E buy.

Keep in mind Abrams X is not a tank proposal for Abrams replacement, it is a technology demonstrator. It is still unknown in what direction with US tank force go for replacement of Abrams. It was intended to make a study and deliver findings and recommendations during 2023, but this was a plan before the War in Ukraine, so it might be delayed or updated with new findings. But it is quite likely that they will go with optionally manned tank, something similar to current OMFV program to replace Bradley or what Abrams X presented. But Abrams X is just that, presentation in what direction US might went, not a concrete proposal, at least for now.

Anyway nothing of that will come soon. Even Franco-Germany MGCS is still in concept phase and seems like on shaky legs. France is currently upgrading their Leclercs (200 to be upgraded) and Germany is getting more Leo 2A7. Panther is ... well it is still in development but it is company proposal, it is not built on some country request. So there is currently no buyers or anyone that is officially interested in obtaining it.

So best option for UK for now is to stick with CR3 upgrade. It already in progress and seems like it was planned to have some early testing this year. It would bridge gap till it is more clear what will replace current tank fleets in US and rest of Europe. Not to mention it is a cheapest solution at the time when there is so much capabilities in need to upgrade. Going now for Abrams or Leo or even K2 will not solve anything and will just waste money and would not bring any great advantage as none of those tanks is ahead of the curve by its capabilities comparing to CR3.

I would tend to agree, CR3 is already well advanced, so no point changing horses mid race. I would hope it's being held to a fixed price, time clause contract and dosen't go down spiralling down the Ajax rabbit hole!

[inch]

Looking like more ch3 upgraded coming then than the 148 , according to Ben Wallace today in parliament,we don't actually have enough that can be upgraded that we actually need tbh I think, probably need about 327 upgraded in my opinion,not just front line but at attritional rate would need more upgraded and ready to go in reserve ,ie keeping the upgraded 227 numbers we have now but 100 in reserve ,think Ukraine has just been a wake up to all western countries of need for tanks heavy armour and how many get destroyed in quick order

[inch]

I'm just wondering if Oman would sell us back a few ch2 if we don't have numbers to upgrade after giving to Ukraine or gad forbid we actually increase the numbers of upgraded ch3 ,you never know Ukraine might really like them and want a few ch3 also if it ends well for them, probably will get to compare with leopards I'm sure ,soon

[TheLoneRanger]

I'm just wondering if Oman would sell us back a few ch2 if we don't have numbers to upgrade after giving to Ukraine or gad forbid we actually increase the numbers of upgraded ch3 ,you never know Ukraine might really like them and want a few ch3 also if it ends well for them, probably will get to compare with leopards I'm sure ,soon

Challenger 3(C3) is not a distinct new real tank per se - it is an upgrade on an "existing converted hull" to a new standard. ie they are not new builds. Calling it challenger 3 was a bit silly - it implies a new build designation when it is not. C2A

There will be no new builds of C3.

If Ukraine wants to buy into a british tank( more likely than a german tank imho given german behaviour .. ) then it would be for what follows C3 - maybe a C4 ? I suspect they may look towards the same tank and spg artillery that poland is moving towards with local manufacture.

[SW1]

If you want to read a gd thread on the subject I suggest these

[Jdam]

https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... ukraine--2

Even as we gift Challenger 2 Tanks, I shall, at the same time, be reviewing the number of Challenger 3 conversions to consider whether the lessons of Ukraine suggest that we need a larger tank fleet.

Hope for more or just getting our hopes up?

[sol]

Looking like more ch3 upgraded coming then than the 148 , according to Ben Wallace today in parliament,we don't actually have enough that can be upgraded that we actually need tbh I think, probably need about 327 upgraded in my opinion,not just front line but at attritional rate would need more upgraded and ready to go in reserve ,ie keeping the upgraded 227 numbers we have now but 100 in reserve ,think Ukraine has just been a wake up to all western countries of need for tanks heavy armour and how many get destroyed in quick order

It is far for certain, but it is the first time someone is saying that there is a chance. Upgrading more than 227, even that number, is unrealistic, but some 180-190 would allow to keep third armoured regiment. With additional Boxer battalion, there might even be chance for third ABCT.

[inch]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

[sunstersun]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

There's a reason why Poland is purchasing like 1500 tanks. Same reason why they don't have 2 carriers and UK does.

edit: Although yeah more tanks, but not more than 250 I think.

[sol]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

What the Army or some people wants is quite often not what they can get. While 180-190, might not be enough, it would be a huge win. It would mean three armoured regiments. Yes four would be even better and if it is possible that would be great, but realistically with everything that the British Army needs now, and all the support it is providing to Ukraine, it is hard to expect such numbers. I doubt there will be money for everything it need. So increase by 32-42 tanks might not sound a lot, it is still an improvement. But let's see first if it would happen at all as there is no guaranty that there will be more tanks at all, just a possibility.

[Tempest414]

Yes I think this is where we are going 40 to 50 more to allow a third regiment this could allow the 3rd division to have a third armoured Brigade plus 2 all Reserve Armoured Battalion Battle Groups made up of

1 x Cavalry Company
1 x CH3 Sqn's
1 x Infantry Battalion
1 x Artillery support group
1 x Logistics support group

[TheLoneRanger]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

There's a reason why Poland is purchasing like 1500 tanks. Same reason why they don't have 2 carriers and UK does.

edit: Although yeah more tanks, but not more than 250 I think.

I much rather the UK purchased lots of K2's off the shelf like Poland is in units of hundreds - but knowing the UK govemerment and MOD specifically - they will insist on gold plating the K2's and asking for changes that will increases costs x2 at a minimum.

The UK has maritime concerns that Poland does not have to the same extent - but we should have more than 300 tanks for sure - a lot more.

[Tempest414]

Quite right but to have say 350 tanks we would need 6 armoured regiments we would need to grow the Army to say 110.000 we would need 3000 Boxer's 1200 Ajax 3000 MRV(P) 2 x the Logistics support 2 x the Artillery support

we will be doing well if we can keep the army at 82,000 keep the third armoured regiment and build a third brigade around it if we can get to

1 x Deep fires BCT = 2 x Armoured Cavalry , 1 + 1 (R) SP gun regiments , 1+1 (R ) M270A2 regts plus supporting units

3 x Armoured brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 1 x Armoured , 2 x Infantry plus supporting units

3 x Light Mech brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry plus supporting units

1 x Air Assault brigade = 1 x Pathfinder company , 3 x Infantry plus supporting units

we will be in a good place for now

[inch]

Well you've got to think with UK such small numbers of equipment and ammunition and people ,and government and mod being so useless ordering equipment loosing billions , plus government already admitted it can't supply to NATO UK army forces it's committed to ,is it just time to admit that UK can't supply an army and just spend the money on air force, missiles,navy, intelligent assets,(air and space) and say to NATO Europe, your on your own as far as British army is concerned,you will sink or swim on your own merits,if you proceed like Germany you will die on you own incompetence as UK not coming to your aid anymore Europe ,as said outside the box I know but if we can't fund properly with adequate numbers maybe that's the way to go , with great air force ,navy numbers and assets for NATO instead ?hell Europe should be able to take care of the land domain themselves with their collective wealth,if they need air or navy or intelligence we will be there helping,so not turning back on them ,as is our land forces contribution would only last a few days in reality in a conflict in Europe so not even helping that much tbh

[SD67]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

There's a reason why Poland is purchasing like 1500 tanks. Same reason why they don't have 2 carriers and UK does.

edit: Although yeah more tanks, but not more than 250 I think.

I much rather the UK purchased lots of K2's off the shelf like Poland is in units of hundreds - but knowing the UK govemerment and MOD specifically - they will insist on gold plating the K2's and asking for changes that will increases costs x2 at a minimum.

The UK has maritime concerns that Poland does not have to the same extent - but we should have more than 300 tanks for sure - a lot more.

By the time CH3 upgrade is done that K2 production line in Poland will be in full swing. It shouldn't be too difficult to work a partnership with the Polish - "How would you like a new turret for your K2 chassis". I don't see that costing more than Abrams 2 or Leo3 off the shelf, given that neither of those exist at the moment. And solidify a defence relationship which is going strong with T31, Brimstone, CAMM

[TheLoneRanger]

But 180-190 just not enough, nevermind increasing numbers deployed,just having enough in the wings when as sure as eggs there would be a high attention rate , depths in numbers of tanks in reserve and trained troops in reserve and spares and ammunition to last more than a week would be the order of the day, otherwise we be out of the fight being a burden on allies very quickly

There's a reason why Poland is purchasing like 1500 tanks. Same reason why they don't have 2 carriers and UK does.

edit: Although yeah more tanks, but not more than 250 I think.

I much rather the UK purchased lots of K2's off the shelf like Poland is in units of hundreds - but knowing the UK govemerment and MOD specifically - they will insist on gold plating the K2's and asking for changes that will increases costs x2 at a minimum.

The UK has maritime concerns that Poland does not have to the same extent - but we should have more than 300 tanks for sure - a lot more.

By the time CH3 upgrade is done that K2 production line in Poland will be in full swing. It shouldn't be too difficult to work a partnership with the Polish - "How would you like a new turret for your K2 chassis". I don't see that costing more than Abrams 2 or Leo3 off the shelf, given that neither of those exist at the moment. And solidify a defence relationship which is going strong with T31, Brimstone, CAMM

Completely agree - the UK and Poland are good defence partners. As long as we keep away from the Germans/French with their "eurotank" nonsense - we should be fine.

If the other Baltic states could align their tank procurement plans with Poland - then all the better!!!!

[sunstersun]

Well you've got to think with UK such small numbers of equipment and ammunition and people ,and government and mod being so useless ordering equipment loosing billions , plus government already admitted it can't supply to NATO UK army forces it's committed to ,is it just time to admit that UK can't supply an army and just spend the money on air force, missiles,navy, intelligent assets,(air and space) and say to NATO Europe, your on your own as far as British army is concerned,you will sink or swim on your own merits,if you proceed like Germany you will die on you own incompetence as UK not coming to your aid anymore Europe ,as said outside the box I know but if we can't fund properly with adequate numbers maybe that's the way to go , with great air force ,navy numbers and assets for NATO instead ?hell Europe should be able to take care of the land domain themselves with their collective wealth,if they need air or navy or intelligence we will be there helping,so not turning back on them ,as is our land forces contribution would only last a few days in reality in a conflict in Europe so not even helping that much tbh

The UK doesn't have the economy to maintain a large navy, airforce and army. Ya gotta prioritize. Tempest is a massive drain, so are the carriers.

Russia is much less scary in a conventional war against NATO than most people could have imagined so I agree with your assessment.

[Tempest414]

Yes lets just give up a Army of nearly 3 fighting divisions I am sure NATO would be over joyed along with host of otherl as it stands today we could have

1st division

3 x light Mechanised Infantry Brigades

3rd Division

1 x Deep strike brigade
3 x Armoured Brigades

2nd Division

1 x Air assault brigade
1 x Aviation brigade
1 x Special operation Brigade

[mrclark303]

Quite right but to have say 350 tanks we would need 6 armoured regiments we would need to grow the Army to say 110.000 we would need 3000 Boxer's 1200 Ajax 3000 MRV(P) 2 x the Logistics support 2 x the Artillery support

we will be doing well if we can keep the army at 82,000 keep the third armoured regiment and build a third brigade around it if we can get to

1 x Deep fires BCT = 2 x Armoured Cavalry , 1 + 1 (R) SP gun regiments , 1+1 (R ) M270A2 regts plus supporting units

3 x Armoured brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 1 x Armoured , 2 x Infantry plus supporting units

3 x Light Mech brigades = 1 x Cavalry , 3 x Infantry plus supporting units

1 x Air Assault brigade = 1 x Pathfinder company , 3 x Infantry plus supporting units

we will be in a good place for now

Spot on, just trying to get to and maintain 82,000 is looking difficult, if not impossible.

The MOD are simply constantly downsizing the force structure in lockstep with declining recruitment and retention.

[inch]

NATO might not be happy but as said Europe should and could and does have the resources IF WANTED and motivation to actually spend on their own land defence adequately,and if not we'll that's their own fault ,look UK doesn't have the will or cash or government department or to some extent army leadership decision making competence ,take your pick ,but the upshot is UK should take the army budget and spend on air force ,navy even special forces etc and our NATO commitment should just be that ,not army as has been proven for years and years we can't fund / man/ competance in leadership and decision and government ,and NATO will still be getting better other commitments from us in what we can provide

[sunstersun]

There's going to be two new land superpower in Europe after the war, Poland and Ukraine would each add up to 3000 tanks on the border with Russia. Germany should recover by then.

I must admit, it's a nice thought of UK dumping the Challengers and buying the K2/K9.

[TheLoneRanger]

There's going to be two new land superpower in Europe after the war, Poland and Ukraine would each add up to 3000 tanks on the border with Russia. Germany should recover by then.

I must admit, it's a nice thought of UK dumping the Challengers and buying the K2/K9.

Yep - It makes alot of sense - fast order of K2/K9's (with NO GOLD PLATING please ....) - give over the C2s to ukraine to be live out the remainder of their lives for the purpose they were built - ie destroying Russian Tanks...

But - as we all know - common sense is one thing the UK MOD lacks !!!!!

[RunningStrong]

There's going to be two new land superpower in Europe after the war, Poland and Ukraine would each add up to 3000 tanks on the border with Russia. Germany should recover by then.

I must admit, it's a nice thought of UK dumping the Challengers and buying the K2/K9.

Yep - It makes alot of sense - fast order of K2/K9's (with NO GOLD PLATING please ....) - give over the C2s to ukraine to be live out the remainder of their lives for the purpose they were built - ie destroying Russian Tanks...

But - as we all know - common sense is one thing the UK MOD lacks !!!!!

So instantly wipe out UK AFV design and manufacturing capability and remove the force multipliers we have have like integrated C4I systems. Gotcha.

[Zeno]

It would very optimistic to suggest that Ukraine will have this large tank force after the war when its struggling to hold Russian forces back before the likely spring offensive by fresh troops (suggested over two hundred thousand) who have spent months training , Russia still has a large amount of armour to deploy to support this