FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Tempest414
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

The Russians may or may not be able to deploy 200,000 but how well trained and motivated they are and how well supplied they can be is a big question also NATO are training up to 3 brigades a month

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by sunstersun »

Russia started the war short on manpower large on equipment, they're gonna end the war short on equipment, large on manpower.

As long as they get the number of tanks, IFVs, artillery and long range fires, they'll be fine.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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sunstersun wrote: 18 Jan 2023, 22:22 Russia started the war short on manpower large on equipment, they're gonna end the war short on equipment, large on manpower.

As long as they get the number of tanks, IFVs, artillery and long range fires, they'll be fine.
Who will be fine?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Tempest414 wrote: 18 Jan 2023, 22:32
sunstersun wrote: 18 Jan 2023, 22:22 Russia started the war short on manpower large on equipment, they're gonna end the war short on equipment, large on manpower.

As long as they get the number of tanks, IFVs, artillery and long range fires, they'll be fine.
Who will be fine?
Ukraine sorry.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by inch »

Think it's time for UK government to really do something really useful at this point with Germany STILL holding out sending tanks until USA does now by all accounts now ,UK should just announce that we we be sending all our challengers to Ukraine with supporting equipment , and join with Poland in K2 purchase, people will say but we got contract with Germany to update challengers well I say screw Germany after this ,I wouldn't buy a wheel nut from them tbh , Germany has cost the world slot of shit and deaths in history,and now in a time when they can stand up and be counted and do something good for once they coursing more shit YET again , screw Germany and it contract,think lots of other countries are going to think this and German defence industry will not be buying from such a useless wet blanket of decision makers ,WOW it's totally unbelievable tbh
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Tempest414
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by Tempest414 »

Germany could send say 150 Leopard 1A5's if they have them if they don't want to A2's armour is armour

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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Tempest414 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 11:27 Germany could send say 150 Leopard 1A5's if they have them if they don't want to A2's armour is armour
Germany does not have 150 Leo 1A5, Rheinmetall as a company has some 80 to 100 in its storage. But Leo 1 could not replace Leo 2. Its armour its to thin, its gun, while it could penetrate tanks like T-62 and APCs, is useless vs T-72 with or without era. Maybe Ukrainians could find some role for them for supporting infantry, but even refurbished T-72, paid by US and Netherlands and modernised by Czechs is better choice.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by Ron5 »

inch wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 10:08 we got contract with Germany to update challengers
Incorrect, the contract is with RBSL, a UK company based in Shropshire that's jointly owned by UK Bae and German Rheinmetall. Most of the upgrade work will be done in the UK by UK workers.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by inch »

Ok Ron5 i stand corrected but still doesn't change my thoughts on the matter,give all challengers to Ukraine and get K2 tank instead,work with Poland,at least there will be lots of them not just our couple hundred costing lots and no chance of getting more ,than 227 at the very most I'm assuming ,not enough, either go in with Poland and gift Ukraine all or as said before totally give up heavy armour and just air force,navy , intelligence, specialist troops etc ,that's our contribution to NATO that's it from now on

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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sol wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 12:54
Tempest414 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 11:27 Germany could send say 150 Leopard 1A5's if they have them if they don't want to A2's armour is armour
Germany does not have 150 Leo 1A5, Rheinmetall as a company has some 80 to 100 in its storage. But Leo 1 could not replace Leo 2. Its armour its to thin, its gun, while it could penetrate tanks like T-62 and APCs, is useless vs T-72 with or without era. Maybe Ukrainians could find some role for them for supporting infantry, but even refurbished T-72, paid by US and Netherlands and modernised by Czechs is better choice.
I agree 100 % on your view of the Leopard 1A5 in Tank on tank action but if Germany are unwilling to allow Leo 2's to go Leo 1's could be put to use in a heavy infantry role say 1 sqn of Leo 1's with a mechanised battalion battle group with say 120 or so they could have 8 to 10 of these BBG's

They could fit a RWS with 40mm GMG and javelin missile

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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The Americans have several thousand Abrams in warehouse storage but don’t seem that keen to send them either….
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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SW1 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 19:03 The Americans have several thousand Abrams in warehouse storage but don’t seem that keen to send them either….
Because - jet engine based tanks are not what Ukraine needs right now - they need diesel powered tanks - simplier to maintain and support in the field given the state of Ukraines armed forces right now.

This Germany sillyness should be an eye opener for all .. completely unreliable security partner and someone we should avoid buying anything from.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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TheLoneRanger wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 20:49
SW1 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 19:03 The Americans have several thousand Abrams in warehouse storage but don’t seem that keen to send them either….
Because - jet engine based tanks are not what Ukraine needs right now - they need diesel powered tanks - simplier to maintain and support in the field given the state of Ukraines armed forces right now.

This Germany sillyness should be an eye opener for all .. completely unreliable security partner and someone we should avoid buying anything from.
I thought the American tanks use diesel.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by inch »

Yes I think this German sillyness as you say will come back to bite Germany big style if they keep stopping countries supplying tanks ,but I'm definitely beginning to think Germany itself will not supply ,I'm really wondering what France is thinking about Germany and her reliability as a defence partner now ,Putin really has done a number on Schultz and he really is quaking in his boots I think

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by dmereifield »

France should be thinking about pulling out if the joint Euro tank ASAP. If they can afford it, the joint fighter jet, too...can you imagine France wanting to allow Germany to constrain its exports of military equipment?

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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dmereifield wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 08:49 France should be thinking about pulling out if the joint Euro tank ASAP. If they can afford it, the joint fighter jet, too...can you imagine France wanting to allow Germany to constrain its exports of military equipment?
Good point, Germany is a unreliable NATO partner, always happy to let it's partners do the heavy lifting, by blaming 'the long shadow of the third Reich'.

Oddly, that wasn't a problem during the Cold War when Ivan was on West Germany's border and defence spending, force structure were way higher than today.

Selective memory......

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

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dmereifield wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 08:49 France should be thinking about pulling out if the joint Euro tank ASAP. If they can afford it, the joint fighter jet, too...can you imagine France wanting to allow Germany to constrain its exports of military equipment?
France would never allow Germany to have that say any agreement would allow France to do as it pleased and if the UK got into anything with Germany it to should take that stand

As a side note any country now looking to buy from Germany will be looking for this clues to be dropped
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by Little J »

Question... Germany being stubborn about "letting" other countries deploy the Leopard 2 (and making themselves less likely to be international partners for any projects in the future), what is stopping these countries from just ignoring the Germans and sending tanks anyway? Is it just manufacturer support?
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Little J wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:43 Question... Germany being stubborn about "letting" other countries deploy the Leopard 2 (and making themselves less likely to be international partners for any projects in the future), what is stopping these countries from just ignoring the Germans and sending tanks anyway? Is it just manufacturer support?
According to BBC, the likes of Poland are getting close to doing exactly that. It helps that Poland are increasingly buying defence equipment from USA and South Korea instead, including both M1 Abrams and K2 Black Panther MBTs.
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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by SW1 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 17:49
Little J wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:43 Question... Germany being stubborn about "letting" other countries deploy the Leopard 2 (and making themselves less likely to be international partners for any projects in the future), what is stopping these countries from just ignoring the Germans and sending tanks anyway? Is it just manufacturer support?
According to BBC, the likes of Poland are getting close to doing exactly that. It helps that Poland are increasingly buying defence equipment from USA and South Korea instead, including both M1 Abrams and K2 Black Panther MBTs.
Yes US and Korean equipment there also not allowed to send to Ukraine…

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by mr.fred »

Little J wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:43 Question... Germany being stubborn about "letting" other countries deploy the Leopard 2 (and making themselves less likely to be international partners for any projects in the future), what is stopping these countries from just ignoring the Germans and sending tanks anyway? Is it just manufacturer support?
One thing to bear in mind is that if Germany feels you are flouting restrictions on imported goods they could introduce limits on what you can import in future. Germany does make quite a lot of stuff.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

SW1 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 18:17
wargame_insomniac wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 17:49
Little J wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 12:43 Question... Germany being stubborn about "letting" other countries deploy the Leopard 2 (and making themselves less likely to be international partners for any projects in the future), what is stopping these countries from just ignoring the Germans and sending tanks anyway? Is it just manufacturer support?
According to BBC, the likes of Poland are getting close to doing exactly that. It helps that Poland are increasingly buying defence equipment from USA and South Korea instead, including both M1 Abrams and K2 Black Panther MBTs.
Yes US and Korean equipment there also not allowed to send to Ukraine…
Does Poland have anything Korean to send to them yet ? Think not.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

Tempest414 wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 09:02 As a side note any country now looking to buy from Germany will be looking for this clues to be dropped

What is interesting that Poland already made that decision with the K2 and K9' purchases. Given the large number of units that Poland is buying, they should have negiotated a license agreement as part of the TOT that should allow them to do what ever they want/need to if they were smart.

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

dmereifield wrote: 20 Jan 2023, 08:49 France should be thinking about pulling out if the joint Euro tank ASAP. If they can afford it, the joint fighter jet, too...can you imagine France wanting to allow Germany to constrain its exports of military equipment?
The UK should pull out of doing the Challenger 3 upgrade with Germany and send those tanks scheduled for C3 upgrade to Ukraine - and make a political point that we will not get into co-op deals with Germany again.

Either the UK wants to get back into tank building itself or it buys off the shelf from USA or Korea.

There was this "silly article" in the Express how the solution was to buy German Leopard 2's as a way of circumventing Germany's veto by sending all Challengers to Ukraine.

I agree with sending all Challengers to Ukraine but not buying from germany the Leopard 2's as that puts a German veto over UK foreign policy but instead to buy USA or Korean ..

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Re: FV4034 Challenger 2 Main Battle Tank (British Army)

Post by TheLoneRanger »

SW1 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 21:12
TheLoneRanger wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 20:49
SW1 wrote: 19 Jan 2023, 19:03 The Americans have several thousand Abrams in warehouse storage but don’t seem that keen to send them either….
Because - jet engine based tanks are not what Ukraine needs right now - they need diesel powered tanks - simplier to maintain and support in the field given the state of Ukraines armed forces right now.

This Germany sillyness should be an eye opener for all .. completely unreliable security partner and someone we should avoid buying anything from.
I thought the American tanks use diesel.
It seems the answer is "ordinary petrol/gasoline, diesel fuel and jet/aviation fuel" with varying degrees of efficiency i suspect.

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