UK Defence Forum

Sea Sparrow has come on land:
http://www.armyrecognition.com/mspo_201 ... ystem.html

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pol ... se-from-us

Poland considers ~96 F-16s to replace its Su-22 and MiG-29 fleets as currently the F-35 is unaffordable for their budget (presumably in adequate numbers to meet their judged reqt for combat mass)

ArmChairCivvy wrote:an undisclosed amount of submarines that are to be jointly acquired by Poland and another NATO ally. "
- partner country for them is in singular, so that leaves it open whether it will be the Netherlands or Norway (both have shown interest)

Defencenews (3 days ago) reported this, in my view tailored for Poland (and possibly the NL; the two together with Norway studied the requirements, but Norway has by now hooked up with Germany. Both are also countries that the US would trust with cruise missiles):

"The model on display at Saab’s stand at IMDEX Asia showed three cylinders with six vertical launch cells each in the lengthened midships section of a model of an A26 submarine. Saab says the lengthened section adds 33 feet and about 400 to 500 tons to the displacement of the A26.

According to Gunnar Öhlund, head of marketing at Kockums, which is part of Saab, the lengthened module “shows the flexibility in performing different missions” of the A26, which he says can also be used for stowing and deploying unmanned underwater vehicles and even special forces or naval divers.

Saab says that the lengthened module can be fitted on newly built submarines or retrofitted onto existing boats as part of a Mid-Life Upgrade program. The company has had experience in the latter for Singapore’s Archer class submarines, which were former Swedish Västergötland class submarines with a 40-foot section added for an air-independent propulsion unit."

Saab took over the Kockums subs builder that for a little while was a subsidiary of the German subs builder. There is an inaccuracy in the article, "hasn't been done before on SSKs", when the Israelis have taken delivery of 5-6 such subs from Germany (continued payments of guilt money, as Germany has paid a bigger part of the subs than the recipient - however, the cruise missiles (with nukes!) have been fitted in Israel).

Third time lucky?

At least the first two have not gone to plan.

First. Poland incurred the wrath of Moscow by agreeing to ABM station on its soil; but the missiles that came with the radar station arrived w/o warheads.

Now. They are not allowed to future proof their Patriot purchase (the price has already been shaved by going for an "economy" warhead, or rather final-stage homing system), as in
"Disagreements over technology sharing may derail negotiations to bring the Patriot air defense system to Poland, according to Polish media. Talks with the US have seemingly faltered since Poland announced that it wanted its Patriot with the Northrop Grumman-developed Integrated Battle Command System (IBCS) intended for the US Army’s future Integrated Air-and-Missile Defense (IAMD) system that will replace Patriot. Not due to come online with the US Army until the 3rd quarter of 2022, Washington is unwilling to share the IAMD technology with the Poles"

Third? Just try and try again. Finland was at first denied access to JASSMs but the aggression exhibited by a certain aspiring World Power soon changed that decision.

Poland is buying HIMARS,

But in the same context their defence24 site tells us this:
" Americans are also inclined to expand the quantitative dimension concerning the rocket artillery units, using the MLRS family platforms. Some of the newly formed rocket artillery battalions are to be deployed to Europe. Deployment of the equipment itself - MLRS/HIMARS launchers, coming from the resources existing within the Army Prepositioned Stock (a system of strategic storage spaces for potential allied reinforcements) has already begun. "

More on how to get more for less (Poland buying 16 Patriot batteries when Sweden thinks they might be able to afford three, at a pinch: One for the capital, one for the AF Command Centre and one for Gotland). Looks like the tubes would be mainly filled with the much less expensive (about the same as the latest AMRAAMs) Israeli missiles

http://www.defensenews.com/articles/pol ... issile-mix

If you take the US, fielding 60 batteries, then
500.000/60 =every battery has 8.300 (active component) soldiers to cover, which is a bde and all the tail needed behind it
For Poland's active army of 77.000
77.000/16 = which is also a bde (as they stand on the home soil, the tail and the supporting infrastructure more broadly gets covered in the same go

Even Romania thinks that fielding a field army against the likely adversary without such cover is unthinkable (details of their deal still to come). Germany is sharing the development with US Army. France and Italy have SAMP-T; and us?

ArmChairCivvy wrote: and us?

IMHO, CAAM is enough for the UK. There's no threat of air attack on British soil and in expeditionary operations some ally ( USA ) will help with land based air defence or enough airpower to make it not necesarry.

Disagreement over the status of one statue in Estonia was the cause for massive state on state cyber attacks a good while back. Now "http://www.thestar.com.my/news/world/20 ... -agencies/" all such, save for burials related statues, will be removed, so will the retaliation be proportionately on a larger scale still?

A good overview here, but the end statement totally misses out that Stunner is coming in to make the number of batteries to be procured affordable and thereby the whole systems of defences relevant (the light-weight Stunner will be just one of the "ammo varieties" mixed within each battery):

"Production of interceptors jointly-developed by US and Israeli industry for the latter's multi-tiered missile defense system is being ramped up, as three interceptor programs transition from low-rate initial production (LRIP) to full-rate production. The Boeing-IAI developed Arrow-3, and the Rafael-Raytheon developed Stunner—used in the David's Sling system—and Tamir—used by the Iron Dome—interceptors are built in a large part by US-based firms, with a network of contractors and sub-contractors stretching out across 30 of its 50 states. This is due to congressional mandates and government-to-government agreements which stipulates that at least 50% of the work is produced in the US. Potential exports are also being taken into account, as the Stunner—marketed abroad as the SkyCeptor—is currently being considered by the Polish government for its Patriot active defense system." from DID of today

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/eurofig ... sales-bid/

Eurofighter for Poland?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:the Stunner—marketed abroad as the SkyCeptor—is currently being considered by the Polish government for its Patriot active defense system." from DID of today

That now has got a Polish name (figures in the link), but mire importantly, the land-based systems of offensive counter-air seem to be moving more into the focus:
"

The $250 million package for the [HIMARS] rocket launcher along with guided warheads and other tactical missiles was seen as a way for Poland and NATO to push back against the Russian military buildup in neighboring Kaliningrad, which gives Moscow the ability to track and knock down Polish aircraft over Polish airspace. The HIMARS, Polish officials told me, would give them the ability to hit targets at a longer range if their aircraft were unable to fly.

But almost six months

https://breakingdefense.com/2018/04/pol ... i=62362832

on, the deal remains a work in progress..."

In the actual AAD arena
". “We expect the Phase II would provide us more technology transfer than Phase I,” Wiśniewski {the Polish military attache in D.C} said, “we’re looking for more technology transfer for our industry.”

One key element of the current negotiations is Raytheon’s low-cost SkyCeptor interceptor missile, which would be used in a nascent short-range interceptor program called Narew, which Warsaw wants to build locally"

Our coverage from Balt Military Expo, day 1 video focusing on the Orka submarine programme

Thanks xav, most interesting.

A pity the Saab guy did dot specify what is the extra module for Poland, going up from Gotland 2.0/ A26 0.9 to the A26 proposed.

Focus on surface fleet / Orkan FACM modernization plans

Haven't watched the above video to know for certain, but a Polish contact of mine has been saying there might be murmurs about CAMM for their naval program.

He's Army, so his knowledge of Navy isn't as full, but at the very least he said some are very interested due to its ease of integration with how hard the Polish navy finds it to get a budget these days.

RetroSicotte wrote:Haven't watched the above video to know for certain, but a Polish contact of mine has been saying there might be murmurs about CAMM for their naval program.

He's Army, so his knowledge of Navy isn't as full, but at the very least he said some are very interested due to its ease of integration with how hard the Polish navy finds it to get a budget these days.

Actually MBDA is now pushing "land ceptor" really hard in Poland, for the Polish Army mediuam range air defense requirement;

xav wrote:Actually MBDA is now pushing "land ceptor" really hard in Poland, for the Polish Army mediuam range air defense requirement;

Aye, I knew about the land based one, but a guy in the Polish forces has been hearing things about a naval application.

No confirmation, just rumour.

RetroSicotte wrote:No confirmation, just rumour.

They might not end up as the only tubs in the Baltic, sailing with CAMM. Defencenews quotes from MBDA:
"

PARIS — MBDA is indirectly pitching its Sea Ceptor naval air defense system to Finland, which is looking overseas to arm its planned four-strong fleet of Squadron 2020 corvettes.

The European missile company is making its offer, based on the Common Anti-air Modular Missile (CAMM), through three companies which are on the short list to supply the combat management system to the Finnish authorities, Paul Stanley, MBDA vice president for northern Europe, told Defense News April 10. Atlas Elektronik, Lockheed Martin Canada and Saab are bidding for the CMS contract, he said."

There is a separate point made about weight (half of ESSM's) that weighs in, should the missiles be positioned near to the bow
- shallow water operation
- operating in iced over-seas (the technique is less "cutting" through the ice than the bow crushing it, by getting onto it)

Will still need to watch xav's vid about the Polish surface vessel modernisation... anything said there?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Will still need to watch xav's vid about the Polish surface vessel modernisation... anything said there?

The ship up for mid life upgrade is a FACM, the only SAM system being picthed for it is the RAM by RAMSys but they didn't want to be interviewed (and RAM may still be too heavy for it...)

Coverage of some navies (and ships) that are rarely in the spot light

Vessels at Balt Military Expo 2018: Poland's ORP Piorun, Lithuania's Dzūkas & Latvia Cēsis

Just found this trawling through You Tube. It's a good watch and shows how far the Polish Military has come.

I wish we did something similar to celebrate Waterloo or such like.

Poland to Procure four AW101 maritime helicopters for ASW and SAR Missions

On April 8, 2019, the Polish Ministry of National Defense signed an offset package worth 395.882751 million zlotys (about $ 104 million) with Italian company Leonardo. This agreement precedes a procurement contract for four Leonardo Helicopters AW101 Merlin for the Polish Navy.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -missions/

Poland Procures Four Leonardo AW101 Maritime Helicopters for ASW and CSAR

Four AW101s and a comprehensive integrated logistics and training package to be supplied with PZL-Świdnik acting as prime contractor. With deliveries to be completed by 2022 the fleet will perform Anti-Submarine Warfare and combat search and rescue missions

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... -and-csar/

The radar on the CGI looks quite small compared to the ones fitted on RN and Italian Navy Merlins

The Polish Invention That Changed WW2

(Mark Felton Productions) 23rd April 2021

Which invention? The metal detector, used to locate land mines.

They truly are 'flying frigates'... going by the price tag " contract valued at approximately 380 mln EUR" for 4