Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

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whitelancer
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by whitelancer »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The Poseidon [rumoured to be in service by 2027; don't expect photos] weapon is unique. It is best described as an intercontinental, nuclear armed, autonomous torpedo. It is twice the size of a typical ballistic missile, have virtually unlimited range and be armed with a nuclear warhead. "
Anyone got any idea what the point is for such a weapon?

Scimitar54
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

Starting WW3? :thumbdown:

seaspear
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

This is a guestimate of it

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Scimitar54 wrote:Starting WW3?
Rather a second strike weapon that would leave six most important areas on (one or the other) US coast uninhabitable for a good while.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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serge750
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by serge750 »

Is this sub going to replace the "Typhoon" class SSBN ? think they were designed to lurk about then fire thier ICBM a few months after WW3?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

serge750 wrote: fire thier ICBM a few months after WW3
Why the wait?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

serge750
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by serge750 »

Thought the idea was to kill the rest of the population after they emerged from their bunkers after a few months ? but i could be wrong...

Defo a MAD thing to do :twisted:

seaspear
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

There is more on this special submarine that indicates it will deploy in 2021 with special abilities for spying very deep there is certainly the suggestion that undersea communications are very vulnerable to this

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Still about the broader context for Poseidon (because in isolation the idea sounds crazy):
In March 2018 Putin said "“During all these years since the unilateral US withdrawal from the ABM Treaty, we have been working intensively on advanced equipment and arms, which allowed us to make a breakthrough in developing new models of strategic weapons.”
+
“Nobody really wanted to talk to us about the core of the problem, and nobody wanted to listen to us. So listen now.”

And the next year the "2019 US Missile Defense Review [confirmed that thinking]: “Missile defenses provide U.S. leaders a position of strength from which to engage"

Hence, second strike has become the leading thought
- if 6 of those (Poseidons) are dropped under the Arctic ice cap, a huge number of SSNs would be needed to hunt them all down, before they head off for their target areas (not before 2027 though; dropped nor head anywhere)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

seaspear
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

Its interesting that one of these special weapons or abilities is the ability to deploy a small nuclear-powered sensor array on the sea bed
this article suggests that Russia has invested heavily in the capability to disrupt internet cables
https://www.forbes.com/sites/hisutton/2 ... 707bc43b04

Scimitar54
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

I said WW3, not Armageddon. A limited (and in theory, more survivable) WW3 is the sort of Scenario that you have described. There is no need for it as a second strike weapon, as your “likely targets would in all likelihood have been destroyed already. More likely use is for a Military Target either in Port or at Sea. It is a Torpedo after all! :mrgreen:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Scimitar54 wrote: There is no need for it as a second strike weapon, as your “likely targets would in all likelihood have been destroyed already.
Err, second strike means, primarily, not a second wave, but the capability to strike back even if your primary strike (ICBMs, for simplicity) weapons have A. been taken out in their silos, or B. - more likely - neutralised by ABM defences.

So, the first strike (whether you are the aggressor, or responding) has by now come to nothing.
Enter: Second strike (which is a capability, typically by different means... now those means have/ will soon have been stretched almost by ;) as much as a "stretch of imagination".

Also, if you looked into the sources listed above, you may have missed the three zeros, added to the yield of the one dropped to Hiroshima
... so a torp to strike a 'seaboard' - not just a port. Actually, at 6 points.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

seaspear
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

It was not though designed just for a unique nuclear strike capability but also for interference with undersea cables ,
This article suggests that though there may be conventions against the severing of cables there dont appear to be against the hacking of such , as to what lengths nations should go to physically stop a submarine doing this in peacetime even if the capability did exist is an interesting question ,does an Astute class vessel have options?
https://www.lawfareblog.com/cutting-cor ... sea-cables

Lord Jim
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Who knows but we did fit some interesting kit to one of our Swiftsure Class SSNs during the Cold War to go after an undersea cable up north that was used by the Russian Navy for communications or something like that.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The (new) sub is making headlines as we would need umpteen Astutes for an effective counter - and therefore it will be a formidable capability.

But the similar capability (especially as for the threat to underwater cables) is much wider; Barentssobserver has put together a summary:

" Main Directorate for Deep Sea Research, the top secret unit directly subordinated the General Staff of the Russian Armed Forces; New weapons

Russia has over several years actively expanded its fleet of special purpose vessels. Several of them are built for seabed operations possibly including sabotage operations against underwater cables.

The “Akademik Aleksandrov” and its sister vessels [2 + 1 more under construction] are believed to be able to carry small-scale submarines for special operations. As reported by defense analyst H.I. Sutton, they are also believed to be involved in testing of new weapons, including the Poseidon underwater nuclear drone.[meaning that they can transport and lower them into water... not very stealthy though]

The Main Directorate for Deep Sea Research, nicknamed GUGI,[...] manages a fleet of nine nuclear-powered submarines and several more surface vessels.

Among the Directorate’s submarines are the “Podmoskovye” and the “Belgorod”.[the former old, and without some of the capabilities now being added]
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

seaspear
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

This earlier article suggests a diving depth of six thousand metres for a submarine not attached to the navy but under orders from intelligence services
https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/201 ... ecret-sub/

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Pseudo
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Pseudo »

Scimitar54 wrote:I said WW3, not Armageddon. A limited (and in theory, more survivable) WW3 is the sort of Scenario that you have described.
The second strike thing's already been covered, but there's probably not a lot of room for a limited nuclear exchange because it very quickly and easily becomes a matter of use 'em or lose 'em, at least as far as wo legs of the triad are concerned. I'd love to think that cooler heads would prevail, but I wouldn't want to bet a fiver on it never mind my life.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pseudo wrote: not a lot of room for a limited nuclear exchange because it very quickly and easily becomes a matter of use 'em or lose 'em
That's why I think it was a pity that INF was lost> I think Putin's quiet acquiescence was there, to get China under that umbrella... and then anti-proliferation could have gained its feet back.

But far too much of China's capability had been invested in that category, and Mr. Xi said (?) no.
- so, here we go
- which means that the thing that dragged on for the whole length of a Parliament, with the LibDems, that cruise missiles and last resort could not be mixed... because of the danger of a ... dangerous mix-up, and over-retaliation.

Well, we are well down that path now.

Hence the next 'Astutes' will have the Virginia 'payload module'.
- oh yeah, and by when are we going to get the next Astutes?
We are just cheering on, while the actual players are on the field (and do what they decide to do)... we might even https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... o-vob7aKNt at some rare conjuncture
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Defiance »

HMS Anson has emerged at Barrow - she is to stay there till 2022 for completion and sea trials. Agamemnon and Agincourt expected to be delivered by the end of 2025

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/new-nuc ... olled-out/


Lord Jim
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Well the original version was bloody fast and now it is faster!!! Maybe we should equip our surface ships with it as well?

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Defiance wrote:Agamemnon and Agincourt expected to be delivered by the end of 2025
From there on, may be we should consider a mix of underwater assets? An ASPI link, posted by @seaspear sets some financial parameters:
"the US Navy’s contract with Boeing for five Orca XLUUVs is about $300 million with entry into service by 2022.

For a fleet of 24 Orcas in RAN service to supplement both the six Collins and 12 Attack-class submarines would be approximately $1.5bn — a little over the quarter of the cost of just one Attack-class submarine."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

The UK is already working towards a 30 meter unmanned sub of it own with trials of a unmanned 12 meter sub going on right now

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I know, but nothing has been stated about the end goal. However :) for once we have a bigger one to play with as the ORCAs will be smaller, reportedly will be about 15[?] metres long, with a 6500 nautical-mile range.
- a very respectable range, so for ops in the N. Atlantic may be shore launched - just making assumptions based on what seems to be possible
- but howabout elsewhere? Which of our ships will be turned into a 'submarine tenders'?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Which of our ships will be turned into a 'submarine tenders'?
SD Northern River?
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

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