AS-90 Self-Propelled Gun (Army)

[RetroSicotte]

Sometimes I'm confused. The longer barrel upgrade was cancelled due to insensitive munitions issues.

What stops it now though? If we're using the same normal rounds with these kits and likely Excalibur or Vulcano anyway, we're not getting any weird new rounds with munitions issues.

I mean, obviously, "money", but it seems like we cut off the arm because the finger was infected.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Sometimes I'm confused. The longer barrel upgrade was cancelled due to insensitive munitions issues

Don't think that was the "real" reason. Mixture (and no one could quite decide how to put the decision criteria together)
1. range; who needs that - we have rocketry now (even if we did not have total air superiority)
2. new turret and gun? The USP of the AS90 has always been its mobility, ability to keep up with the armoured BG
- privately (speculation!) I harbour a suspicion it would not have been quite the same after the upgrades. Look (!) what the Poles had to get: a K2 chassis (still has the AS90 suspension system, even though produced under license in ROK)
3. The cold war dinosaurs... who needs that kind of formations anyway. The gun will last as long as the formations will last
- we are never going to wage a peer-on-peer war anyway (says the US Army, too; see how they are now scrambling, to make up for the complacency)
4. Money, esp. in the context of waging colonial whack-the-mole wars, where fire power was never a comparator
- send a few light guns; at least they can be moved by helicopter to the next relevant hill top

Could go on, but that might be the gist?

[arfah]

-<>-<>-<>-

[marktigger]

Sometimes I'm confused. The longer barrel upgrade was cancelled due to insensitive munitions issues

Don't think that was the "real" reason. Mixture (and no one could quite decide how to put the decision criteria together)
1. range; who needs that - we have rocketry now (even if we did not have total air superiority)
2. new turret and gun? The USP of the AS90 has always been its mobility, ability to keep up with the armoured BG
- privately (speculation!) I harbour a suspicion it would not have been quite the same after the upgrades. Look (!) what the Poles had to get: a K2 chassis (still has the AS90 suspension system, even though produced under license in ROK)
3. The cold war dinosaurs... who needs that kind of formations anyway. The gun will last as long as the formations will last
- we are never going to wage a peer-on-peer war anyway (says the US Army, too; see how they are now scrambling, to make up for the complacency)
4. Money, esp. in the context of waging colonial whack-the-mole wars, where fire power was never a comparator
- send a few light guns; at least they can be moved by helicopter to the next relevant hill top

Could go on, but that might be the gist?

The if it can't fit in a herc/chinook school of thought has always ignored some of the realites of modern warfare. they have needed "Cold War dinosaurs" to lead the way into Bosnia, Kosovo, Iraq (twice) and I wonder how many British defence thinkers pondered why some of our European allies deployed !55mm SPG and Tanks to Afghan and could the extra reach of the 155mm been of more use than constantly having to shift round light guns

[ArmChairCivvy]

Say no more, but it made for good film material man-handling them (it) to the top of a hill... in the 60s, in Nam, they were (OK, howitzers, but about the same for weight and effect) helicoptered in... and then to the next spot
- I am sure we did a lot of that too, would just have posed the question "why not a
M777 - the world's first 155mm Howitzer weighing less than 10000 lbs - for greater effect, and the same hassle"

[Old RN]

Also the M777 is a BAE product with most of the key mechanical bits (such as the barrel) made in UK?

[marktigger]

certainly the M777 to replace the L118. But set up for the 155mm ammunition that is optimised for the AS90 as well

[ArmChairCivvy]

certainly the M777 to replace the L118. But set up for the 155mm ammunition that is optimised for the AS90 as well

I have to contradict myself from further above in this thread: apparently the M777 weighs 2.5x the weight of an L118?

However as for the rounds for AS90, we just need to swollow our pride and go shopping in Norway (defence24.com reports):
[NAMMO at the]" Norwegian booth. Extended Range Fragmentation-High Explosive round was presented among the other types of ammo. This projectile was developed with the use of desensitized materials, which increases the safety of use. The round is capable of destroying targets at distances of up to 41 kilometres, with application of a 52-calibre long barrel (Krab, Kryl, PzH 2000) and the base bleed technology. In case of the 39-calibre long barrel (M109A6, AS-90) the range is decreased, down to 30 kilometres."

[marktigger]

we've no choice but to buy internationally as British waste of space ceased production of it many years ago and dismantled the production line. Due to no repeat orders from the Blair Government. Allegedelly they Just In time supply contract stipulates the Government are to pay for the reestablishing of the factory which then becomes property of baE and they will have a 20 year lead in time before having to produce ammunition.

[arfah]

-<>-<>-<>-

[ArmChairCivvy]

Does it matter really, as NATO standardisation is working so well that even the Russians use it for their export models (so the buyer is free to shop anywhere for rounds that suit the occasion, or the politics of the day)?

[marktigger]

yeap and AS90 with its ammo had better performance than the M109 just a pity Vickers couldn't compete with the Americans and M109 but with the international ammunition AS90's performance is degraded to as good as the M109 not better with its dedicated ammo.

[marktigger]

what it means is we could have closed vickers allot sooner and just stuck with and upgraded our M109's instead of selling them to austria.

[ArmChairCivvy]

AS90 gene pool doing quite well, in the K9:
- the licensed suspension in ROK, India, Turkey, Poland (Norway and Finland rumoured to lean towards a K9 purchase, too)
- the Poles put a Braveheart turret on it, too (to house an in-production Nexter 155mm)

[RetroSicotte]

It always surprises me, in a way. We denied the Braveheart turret for "insensitive munitions" issues.

So why did that stop the turret being integrated like the Poles did, and then just acquiring different ammunition?

Sounds suspiciously like financial shutdown and looking for any excuse to me. Given the Poles have experience in building the Braveheart turret, you'd think we could turn to them to get the expertise back.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Looks like we had two turrets to spare
"The first two prototypes used the British supplied Braveheart turret, whilst the third was made ​​entirely by Huta Stalowa Wola."
- the current (final?) one has been modified for an autoloader

[marktigger]

Looks like we had two turrets to spare
"The first two prototypes used the British supplied Braveheart turret, whilst the third was made ​​entirely by Huta Stalowa Wola."
- the current (final?) one has been modified for an autoloader

wonder could they be fitted to HMS bulwark and HMS Albion

[mr.fred]

It always surprises me, in a way. We denied the Braveheart turret for "insensitive munitions" issues.

So why did that stop the turret being integrated like the Poles did, and then just acquiring different ammunition?

Sounds suspiciously like financial shutdown and looking for any excuse to me. Given the Poles have experience in building the Braveheart turret, you'd think we could turn to them to get the expertise back.

It could be that the longer barrel didn't add value without the desired ammunition.
It could be that the longer barrel wasn't suited to the RA conops, with or without the desired ammunition, and the failure of the ammunition provided a get-out clause.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Looks like we had two turrets to spare
"The first two prototypes used the British supplied Braveheart turret, whilst the third was made ​​entirely by Huta Stalowa Wola."
- the current (final?) one has been modified for an autoloader

wonder could they be fitted to HMS bulwark and HMS Albion

Others have wondered, too:
http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/155 ... sea-04476/

[arfah]

-<>-<>-<>-

[Gabriele]

GMLRS could really do with a purchase of some Alternate Warhead rounds, to restore the area-annihillation capability that was once the pride and reason d'etrè of the system.
Up to 2010 the Royal Artillery was also planning an ATACMS purchase. Of course, everything fell apart. But now they might just be in time to buy into its successor, if there is real money for it, and not just dreams.

Wheeled 155mm howitzers are not a problem either. Sweden will put 12 Archer on the market soon; France would be all too happy to sell CAESAR.

The weapon locating radar is also nothing new. It was once to enter service by 2012 to replace COBRA, and lately MAMBA too, with a single, all-doing type.
Of course, that fell apart too, with nothing purchased and COBRA removed from service. More luck this time...?

Then there is an equally long-running ambition to purchase guided, long range ammunition (Excalibur, Vulcano, SGP all good choices readily available) and a requirement for a course-correcting fuze to improve the accuracy of the normal shells and reduce CEP. Requirements that have all been around since before 2010.

And AS90 could really, really do with a 52 calibre barrel.


It used to be called "Indirect Fire Precision Attack Capability", but it produced little more than nothing. Let's see if under new names it goes any better...

[marktigger]

AS90 could do with the ammunition that was designed for it going back into Production but BaE closed and dismantaled the line

[mr.fred]

And AS90 could really, really do with a 52 calibre barrel.

I'd rather see the money go into training than get tied up into equipment.
Worth a thought that if we keep extending the range we won't have anywhere in the UK large enough to train on.

Though a few extended range rounds and something like SMART155 or BONUS would seem like a useful thing to have in stock.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

You can always rely on UK procurement to go round in circles...

[Gabriele]

Worth a thought that if we keep extending the range we won't have anywhere in the UK large enough to train on.

I find the awareness that it will be always invariably outranged by its adversaries rather more concerning