Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]
Posted: 14 Jul 2021, 19:17
Is it just me, or does the 1000 missile number seem very low. Even if 60% are UK, this only gives one re load per T45?
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We know the contract for the mid life update of the near 1,000 Italian and UK Asters is 1.2 billion euros, approx £1 million each. The MoD budget for the T45 is £500 million and that has to fund the mid life update of the RN Asters and installing the 24 silo for CAMM and the missiles plus modifying the T45 CMS, times six.Digger22 wrote:Is it just me, or does the 1000 missile number seem very low. Even if 60% are UK, this only gives one re load per T45?
Sigh. We certainly do not know that it costs one million per missile.NickC wrote:We know the contract for the mid life update of the near 1,000 Italian and UK Asters is 1.2 billion euros, approx £1 million each.
If you want to be pedantic we know the average cost of the mid life update of the Aster missile is aprox £1 million per missileRon5 wrote:Sigh. We certainly do not know that it costs one million per missile.NickC wrote:We know the contract for the mid life update of the near 1,000 Italian and UK Asters is 1.2 billion euros, approx £1 million each.
Episode 86,301 in the continuing saga of dividing contract value by number of units.
So for whatever numbers of Asters the RN holds think it a safe assumption the MoD with be paying approx £1 million per missile MLU. The MoD funding £500 million for the T45 missile upgrade, with the majority of the spend on the Aster 30 upgrades, in the future the 48 Sylver VLS cells will only be for the Aster 30s, no more Aster 15s, they will be replaced with the new 24 cell silo for CAMMs.The global MLU production Programme will cover the retrofit of about 1000 ASTER missiles, starting from 2023 for the following 13 years, with a total value of more than 1.2 billion euros [Euro 0.85 to £]
No you don't because you don't know how the contract money will be spent. There will be a considerable portion of it spent on things other than upgrading missiles. For example, startup costs.NickC wrote:If you want to be pedantic we know the average cost of the mid life update of the Aster missile is aprox £1 million per missile
Agree totally but what we do know is the contract with Eurosam is worth more than 1.2 billion euros which as said equates to approx £1 million per missile, how the other costs are funded is an unknown, per missile on delivery or an upfront funding method, we don't know, but think reasonable to assume it will not make that much difference to the average cost per missile, but it might, that's why always adding the caveat of approx £1 millionRon5 wrote:No you don't because you don't know how the contract money will be spent. There will be a considerable portion of it spent on things other than upgrading missiles. For example, startup costs.NickC wrote:If you want to be pedantic we know the average cost of the mid life update of the Aster missile is aprox £1 million per missile
https://www.avio.com/sites/avio.com/fil ... ef_eng.pdfRome, 7th July 2021 - Avio S.p.A. (“Avio”) informs that it has received several extensions of the production orders by MBDA France S.A.S. for the production of further lots of boosters for the anti-air and anti-missile ASTER-30 defence system, for a total value higher than Euro 80 million. These orders are on top to those received and communicated to the market in May 2020. The deliveries related to these additional orders are expected to take place in the 2022-30 timeframe.
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/20 ... y-says-mp/Only one of the Royal Navy’s Type 45 destroyers is operational, ministers have admitted.
HMS Defender, recently at the centre of a diplomatic row with Russia following a voyage off the Crimean peninsula, is the only vessel of the class without an issue.
The other five Type 45s all need work, either planned or due to problems developed while at sea.
Tobias Ellwood MP, chairman of the Commons Defence Committee, suggested the situation was “operationally unacceptable”.
Both Defender and HMS Diamond were part of the carrier strike group (CSG), the UK’s attempt to demonstrate its naval power around the world.
But Jeremy Quin, the Defence Procurement Minister, said HMS Diamond had experienced “some technical issues” and was having maintenance, inspection and “defect rectification”.
HMS Daring and HMS Duncan are having planned “deep maintenance”, while HMS Dauntless has been upgraded and is due to return to sea for trials this year.
HMS Dragon is undergoing “planned maintenance” in advance of further operational commitments.
Mr Quin told MPs on the committee: “We have two Type 45s embarked with the CSG, Diamond has got current issues but I hope they will be able to be rectified shortly.”
Mr Ellwood said: “HMS Defender is now our only current operational Type 45.
“If that ship experiences propulsion problems as we have seen across the Type 45 family, then our carrier group would have to be forced to lean on a Nato ally to ensure that we have destroyer protection.
“That really indicates - bottom line - we need a bigger navy.”
Let's hope Dauntless' upgrade demonstrates the PIP actually works!Jdam wrote:With the power and propulsion update for the other 5 ships and now the Sea Cepter upgrades it going to be very hard to maintain type 45 levels for the next 5 years at least.
So the plan was to have 2 of only 6 Air Defence ships deployed with the CSG on the other side of the world with all the rest stuck in port undergoing work. Not a very good plan then.Defiance wrote:It sounds drastic until you realise that 4/6 of them are undergoing routine work which has already been planned (and was the case before the CSG21 deployment).
What it highlights is not to build ships with expensive and crap propulsion system, the full horrific details revealed in the Nov 2016 Parliamentary report.whitelancer wrote:So the plan was to have 2 of only 6 Air Defence ships deployed with the CSG on the other side of the world with all the rest stuck in port undergoing work. Not a very good plan then.Defiance wrote:It sounds drastic until you realise that 4/6 of them are undergoing routine work which has already been planned (and was the case before the CSG21 deployment).
What it highlights is what everyone already knows, 6 T45s was never enough, even without the propulsion problems they have.
It is if the only thing you really give a **** about defending with your air defence ships happens to also be on the other side of the worldwhitelancer wrote: So the plan was to have 2 of only 6 Air Defence ships deployed with the CSG on the other side of the world with all the rest stuck in port undergoing work. Not a very good plan then.
Should add not disagreeing with your point that six was never enough.NickC wrote:What it highlights is not to build ships with expensive and crap propulsion system, the full horrific details revealed in the Nov 2016 Parliamentary report.whitelancer wrote:So the plan was to have 2 of only 6 Air Defence ships deployed with the CSG on the other side of the world with all the rest stuck in port undergoing work. Not a very good plan then.Defiance wrote:It sounds drastic until you realise that 4/6 of them are undergoing routine work which has already been planned (and was the case before the CSG21 deployment).
What it highlights is what everyone already knows, 6 T45s was never enough, even without the propulsion problems they have.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/c ... tAnchor048
For the RN, It was a simple choice between a full order of 12, (then reduced to 8) or only getting a single Aircraft Carrier.whitelancer wrote:What it highlights is what everyone already knows, 6 T45s was never enough, even without the propulsion problems they have.
Completely agree but the most important thing now is to find a plausible way to increase the escort numbers back to a sensible level within the current budget straight jacket.Cooper wrote:New Destroyer builds come & go but building 2 Aircraft Carriers is only a once a generation opportunity, that may have not come again
Documentary with unprecedented access to the construction of the Royal Navy's newest destroyer, the £1billion HMS Daring, Britain's first new warship for 25 years. The programme follows the process of building the vessel in three different locations with the latest techniques and testing its vast array of weapons. Maritime experts discuss the significance of the ship to the UK's defences, and cameras go behind the scenes on the official launch that brings royalty to Glasgow.