UK Defence Forum

https://questions-statements.parliament ... -30/122596

On current plans, the Type 45 destroyers will leave service between 2035 and 2038.

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So HMS Daring has ~15 years of life left.

BlueD954 wrote:will leave service between 2035 and 2038.

That tight window is the reflection of how the build was batched, to get them quickly out of the way and move on, to the carriers.
... T4(X) discussion will soon pick up speed

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

BlueD954 wrote:will leave service between 2035 and 2038.

That tight window is the reflection of how the build was batched, to get them quickly out of the way and move on, to the carriers.
... T4(X) discussion will soon pick up speed

Or will T32 provide some sort of medium-layer air defence?

ArmChairCivvy wrote:That tight window is the reflection of how the build was batched, to get them quickly out of the way and move on, to the carriers.
... T4(X) discussion will soon pick up speed

Exactly, there is now a very strong argument to increase the speed of the T26 construction phase in an effort to get the first batch of T4X destroyers handed over to RN by 2033/2034. Effectively this means speeding up the rate of T26 construction by around 4 years ideally by building the Frigate factory on the Clyde. Completing 8 (or 9) Type 26's within 10 years is ambitious but absolutely possible if HMG allow BAE to remove the brakes from the current build schedule.

This argument will be strengthened further if any of the T23's are decommissioned early in the Integrated Review.

If HMG is serious about growing the escort fleet this would be great way of doing it especially if the T4X turns out to have the same ASW credentials as the T26's.

Yeah right, the Navy will not be decommissioning these lightly worked destroyers after 25 years. There is plenty to time to execute the current T26 plan, then move to building the next gen destroyer.

Even building at the steady pace of 0.5 units per year the first T4x will be finished when Daring is 33.

shark bait wrote:....the Navy will not be decommissioning these lightly worked destroyers after 25 years.

Who said anything about decommissioning the T45's after 25 years?

As we know the first T-45 was commissioned in 2009 as said with there light service life the first ship should really be looking at a OSD of 2039 = 30 years . What is meant by the " We still plan the OSD of type 45 to start in 2035 " is we have not given any thought and that was the last plan we had and have just knock the dust off

Also given at this time the last type 26 is due to commission in 2038 this would mean unless the last four type 26's are given a better radar fit to allow them to take on / over the AAW role the CSG will have no ship based long range AAW capability

Poiuytrewq wrote:Who said anything about decommissioning the T45's after 25 years?

2035 - 2009 = 26

How long were the T23 susposed to be in service

Can see the T45 in service well into the 40's, what with the engine upgrades aswell, hopefully they will get the mk 41 by then

But if the RN is feeling flush ….

Are all ASTER 30 missiles ABM capable?

No.

There are two more 'generations' with step-wise improvements in that capability.
- but it needs both the radar and the interceptor to be 'capable'
- again baby steps with the radar (the Dutch cousin has already gone through successful tests, including spotter and shooter separation... by more than a mile )

BlueD954 wrote:Are all ASTER 30 missiles ABM capable?

Aster 30 block 1 is capable of ABM of missiles of 600 km range

Aster 30-NT takes this to 1500 km

Aster 30 block 2 BMD will extend this to 3000 km

Tempest414 wrote: Aster 30 block 1 is capable of ABM of missiles of 600 km range

These are old stats, but just to challenge the above... has it been tested and proven in any way?
"Air defenses have been subjected to far more flight tests than ballistic missiles: Block I and II of the Navy’s Standard missile had 88, the original air-defense version of the Patriot had 114, and Advanced Medium Range Air-to-Air Missile had 111. The testing program for Safeguard, the only NMD system that the United States has deployed, was consistent with these air-defense programs—165 tests were conducted.
By comparison, in several important ways, though, missile defense is tougher than air defense, in large part because of the very short time lines, high speeds, and the challenges of overcoming decoys."
- as I mentioned, Thales has proved the radar capability of the close relative of Samson (which has had software upgrades, too, in this respect) but the missile used was American, fired from a USN destroyer

Agreed there is little proof of the claim by MBDA however this is their claim that 30 block 1 can engage 600 km range BM's

ArmChairCivvy wrote:No.

There are two more 'generations' with step-wise improvements in that capability.
- but it needs both the radar and the interceptor to be 'capable'
- again baby steps with the radar (the Dutch cousin has already gone through successful tests, including spotter and shooter separation... by more than a mile )

T45 has been successfully tested against BM. Temp radar software fixes were made for the tests and since then the fixes have been applied to all ships.

I'm sure you could google the info.

Ron5 wrote:T45 has been successfully tested against BM. Temp radar software fixes were made for the tests and since then the fixes have been applied to all ships.

IIRC, in the original trial, it was an either/ or choice. The ship had to be in either AAW or BMD mode. The work since then has been to allow the two modes to operate concurrently.

Ron5 wrote:I'm sure you could google the info.

Radar+interceptor if you read what I said
... go Google and come back

Caribbean wrote: in the original trial, it was an either/ or choice. The ship had to be in either AAW or BMD mode.

- that's the point two; but hey-ho, we can have T45s to operate as pairs... just saying

A radar that can operate in simultaneous modes anti-ballistic anti-air and surface warfare is the new spy-6
https://www.defensenews.com/digital-sho ... next-year/
https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24503 ... 8v8vM0zaUk
The Dutch Smart-l multi mission radar is also capable of this
https://armadainternational.com/2017/10 ... rformance/
The life of the type 45 projected at up to 30 plus years is there an argument that its radars should be readily upgraded to maintain the cutting edge it had when launched

Interesting read re T45 ASW technologies

https://www.ultra-electronics.com/uploa ... ure_uk.pdf

I winder if a T45 doing self-defence ASW trials on its own, in the Med, was exactly about the above. At the time it seemed like a long way to go and no reasoning was given.

Interesting read but it would seem to be a stretch to suggest that it is effective without trials involving a submarine , especially considering the technology built into the type 26

Repulse wrote:Interesting read re T45 ASW technologies

https://www.ultra-electronics.com/uploa ... ure_uk.pdf

Thanks a lot. Very informative.

Some comments:
- I understand it is NOT talking about what is NOW carried onboard T45, but as a proposal for "full spectrum version of ASW upgrade of T45"?. Reference to T45 takes place only in one page, p.18, stating the hull mounted sonar. T45 does carry Sea Sensor Ship Torpedo Defense System, including towed Sonar 2170 and deployed decoy systems. Or, does T45 carry "Quad Passive Receive Array (QPRA)" and "Dual Frequency Transmit Array (DFTA)"?

- This was the first time for me to know the name of the MFS7000 hull sonar onboard T45, as Sonar 2091.

- On Sonar 2170, RN has 16 systems and 40 units can carry them (Didn't know that ... ). According to the following link (*1), Sonar 2170 is a system which is designed for transfer from ship to ship. The system will be removed from ships if they are alongside for any length of time, for example during refits...Transfer of Sonar 2170 from ship to ship takes around four days.....

# I'm not sure 16 is enough, as it shall be carried on QECV, Fort-SSS, 2 Tides/Waves (rotating from base to TF), at least 4 escorts = 8 units for CVSG. I guess TAPS ship will also have it. If LRG is also formed at the time, 1 LPD, 1 Bay, 1 Tides/Wave, 2 escorts shall be there = 5 units. Then, it is 8 + 1 + 5 = 14. Surely some systems will be in "maintenance", so 16 looks very tight.

*1: https://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?i ... a.223106.h

the plus side is that type 31 should be able to have this fitted as and when needed

what are the expected Out of Service Dates for the Type45?