Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[donald_of_tokyo]

New Sea Viper capability on 2028. Not bad?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-con ... ating-date

“On current plans the Initial Operating Capability for the Sea Viper Evolution on T45 destroyers is February 2028. The first in class to receive the upgrades to its Sea Viper Evolution has not yet been nominated.”

[Caribbean]

The UK and most other navies have classed ships as 1st Rate, 2nd Rate etc. to denote their capabilities, for hundreds of years. Tier 1, Tier 2 is just a modern version of that. Historically, ratings had a practical effect, as it governed whether a ship's captain could, with honour, decline battle with another ship. If anything, video games adopted the idea from the real world.

[abc123]

New Sea Viper capability on 2028. Not bad?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/mod-con ... ating-date

“On current plans the Initial Operating Capability for the Sea Viper Evolution on T45 destroyers is February 2028. The first in class to receive the upgrades to its Sea Viper Evolution has not yet been nominated.”

Maybe all 6 get it by the leaving of service date?

[Scimitar54]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

[abc123]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

France has only two. Italian as well. They teamed up to make it 4. But still RN has 6. Not bad?

[Repulse]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

France has only two. Italian as well. They teamed up to make it 4. But still RN has 6. Not bad?

Sort of, France only has one carrier to protect the UK has two.

However, IMO that is 90’s thinking when area air defence was the reserve of HVU task groups - this still exists, but without land based wide area air or BDM defence (probably rightly for small island such as the UK) then these ships are a critical part of UK defence and also the ability to offer allies similar protection when needed.

We need more, and this is why I argue for a single T26 / T45 replacement - yes it will end up with fewer tier one ships overall, but allows more ships overall to be surged to these critical roles when needed.

[Ron5]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

Not often a decision by Gordon Brown is described in such glowing terms

[Scimitar54]

Perhaps he would have preferred it if there had been no T45 and therefore no vessels to update!

[NickC]

I'm confused as understood from the Eurosam PR July 2021 the RN was going to update its Aster 30 Block 0 (Navy) to Block 1NT (new tech) with its new gen higher waveband Ka seeker, improved weapon controller and capable of dealing with ballistic missiles with separable warheads extending its capability to defend against 600 km (Scud) SRBM to 1500 km MRBM's.

Now the January MBDA PR and Grant Shapps saying the Royal Navy’s existing Aster 30 missiles will only receive the upgraded Block 1 (SAMP/T) warheads and new guidance and seeker software to deal with new anti-ship ballistic missile threats plus the Sampson radar and combat management system will be upgraded.

Interprete this as to mean RN Aster seekers will not be upgraded and will still use the original Ku band lower frequency seeker and its also been said it won't be fully operational (FOC) until 2032.

Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP @grantshapps
We’re upgrading the @RoyalNavy ’s drone killing missiles - which have been used decisively in the Red Sea to destroy Houthi drones. Today’s £405 million investment will upgrade their warhead and software to make Sea Viper even more lethal against new and growing threats from hostile drones and missiles.
2:31 PM · Jan 21, 2024

https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... c-threats/

[Jdam]

I think there was a lot of confusion at the time because the 1NT was getting mentioned a lot in articles for the contracts we placed to update to the block 1.

[donald_of_tokyo]

At least in both contract announcements, it was clearly mentioned that it is Aster 30 Block 1, not NT. I do not understand why people keep saying NT...

[Caribbean]

I'm confused as understood from the Eurosam PR July 2021 the RN was going to update its Aster 30 Block 0 (Navy) to Block 1NT (new tech) with its new gen higher waveband Ka seeker, improved weapon controller and capable of dealing with ballistic missiles with separable warheads extending its capability to defend against 600 km (Scud) SRBM to 1500 km MRBM's.

Now the January MBDA PR and Grant Shapps saying the Royal Navy’s existing Aster 30 missiles will only receive the upgraded Block 1 (SAMP/T) warheads and new guidance and seeker software to deal with new anti-ship ballistic missile threats plus the Sampson radar and combat management system will be upgraded.

Interprete this as to mean RN Aster seekers will not be upgraded and will still use the original Ku band lower frequency seeker and its also been said it won't be fully operational (FOC) until 2032.

Rt Hon Grant Shapps MP @grantshapps
We’re upgrading the @RoyalNavy ’s drone killing missiles - which have been used decisively in the Red Sea to destroy Houthi drones. Today’s £405 million investment will upgrade their warhead and software to make Sea Viper even more lethal against new and growing threats from hostile drones and missiles.
2:31 PM · Jan 21, 2024

https://www.mbda-systems.com/press-rele ... c-threats/

Sounds like the Eurosam PR was incorrect. This article describes the current programs. NT is in stage 2 which is just an assessment right now.

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/d ... apability/

[NickC]

The following report Feb 1st by Defence Industry Europe saying that Eurosam contract specifically covers both the production of Aster 30 B1 ground and Aster 30 B1NT ground and naval missiles for Italy, it also mentions procurement of additional equipment for the United Kingdom for the Mid-Life Update (MLU) Aster production.

My gues from what Shapps said RN will receive the minor mid-life updated Aster 30 B1 for T45 whereas Italian Navy will also receive some of the newer Aster 30 B1NT for their FREMM's and the 4 full configuration PPA frigates, seen mention of IOC 2025, presuming French Navy as well?

https://defence-industry.eu/eurosam-to- ... for-italy/

[abc123]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

France has only two. Italian as well. They teamed up to make it 4. But still RN has 6. Not bad?

Britain has two large carriers. French and Italian carriers have self-defence missiles of their own. Britain is traditional sea power, France and Italy, not so much.

[abc123]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

Not often a decision by Gordon Brown is described in such glowing terms

Ironymeter needs calibration, huh?

[Dobbo]

Presumably this is a reference to introducing MK41 on the T45?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jerem ... ea-2889506

[Jdam]

Putting the MK41 on the Type 45 is something that will add to the list of everything else that needs to done to them, once these upgrades are done they will be going out of service.

If you want MK41 land attack capability speed up the Type 26's.

NSM not have a land attack ability?

[Dobbo]

What I’m not clear about is whether the addition of MK41 and CAAM (ie the presently planned upgrade) are mutually exclusive.

For example are the CAAM cells covering the MK41 gym? If not, can they do both, if so, can they add MK41 and quad pack CAAMM?

I assume NSM is unaffected.

[Caribbean]

The path of least resistance would likely be to speed up the installation of NSM on T23 & T45 & increase the number installed on each ship if physically possible. Basically, "more of what we are already doing and faster". Installation seems pretty quick compared to other options as well.

The Aster update would probably be the next one - less radical physical modifications (Sensor, software & processor upgrades mainly) than opening up the hull for more VLS

Then T45 CAMM & T45/T31 MK41.

Speed up T26/ T-31 builds (quite long term - would also probably need additional hulls to prevent production gaps, so expensive as well)

Wildcards - buying into CAMM-ER for the T23s or another canister-launch land attack missile or adding other weapons systems

[Poiuytrewq]

Presumably this is a reference to introducing MK41 on the T45?

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/jerem ... ea-2889506

How are they going integrate Mk41 and TLAM on the T45s in a few months and for a few £million?

Seems speculative at this stage.

[Repulse]

Putting the MK41 on the Type 45 is something that will add to the list of everything else that needs to done to them, once these upgrades are done they will be going out of service.

If you want MK41 land attack capability speed up the Type 26's.

NSM not have a land attack ability?

I strongly suspect that 2038 will be the year when the first two T45s leave service - I think the final OSD will be closer to 2043. Plenty of time to get value of money from adding a MK41 VLS to them IMO.

I would suspect if the treasury go down this route it will mean that the T31s will not get it, which IMO is the correct answer - more appropriate to give them 16 NSMs.

[Ron5]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

Not often a decision by Gordon Brown is described in such glowing terms

Ironymeter needs calibration, huh?

It's sarcasm not irony

[new guy]

What I’m not clear about is whether the addition of MK41 and CAAM (ie the presently planned upgrade) are mutually exclusive.

For example are the CAAM cells covering the MK41 gym? If not, can they do both, if so, can they add MK41 and quad pack CAAMM?

I assume NSM is unaffected.

Yes, the current plan for CAMM has them using some of the gym space. With which VLS, who knows? Not us for sure.

[Jdam]

Putting the MK41 on the Type 45 is something that will add to the list of everything else that needs to done to them, once these upgrades are done they will be going out of service.

If you want MK41 land attack capability speed up the Type 26's.

NSM not have a land attack ability?

I strongly suspect that 2038 will be the year when the first two T45s leave service - I think the final OSD will be closer to 2043. Plenty of time to get value of money from adding a MK41 VLS to them IMO.

I would suspect if the treasury go down this route it will mean that the T31s will not get it, which IMO is the correct answer - more appropriate to give them 16 NSMs.

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.