Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Poiuytrewq]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

NSM fits into the months and £millions envelope much better than Mk41 and TLAM.

[new guy]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

[new guy]

16 NSM with some sort of improvements or more likely proving land attack capabilities would be one hell of a capability.
It's like saying: Oh yeah we have the same amount of AShM/LAM as the french frigates have AAM in a AAM committed configuration.

[SW1]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.

[Ian Hall]

https://www.forces.net/services/navy/fi ... hts-attack

[abc123]

Good job we only have six of them to update then isn’t it!

Wise and foresightful decision by the HMG.

Not often a decision by Gordon Brown is described in such glowing terms

Ironymeter needs calibration, huh?

It's sarcasm not irony

Okay, whatever...

[Repulse]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.

Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.

I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.

[SW1]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.

Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.

I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.

We provided a contribution that is roughly equivalent to any such contribution we have provided in the past so there is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about.

[tomuk]

Yes bigger isn't always better particularly where you're talking about the optimisation of a ships noise signature and are changing the parameters of an already optimised hull.

T26 is considerably bigger, so it must be noisier? Utter nonsense.

Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.

You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.

Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?

$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.

Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.

Yes a lower level capability that some including high ranking admirals might call a second tier whether they play video games or not.

They don't.

Yes a lower level capability which if the cash is there for Mk41 can be upgraded to a very complimentary escort to T26\T45

Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.

Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.

[tomuk]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.

[Repulse]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

What embarrassment factor? Who else is striking targets in the Red Sea? With biden cheerleading terrorists in our own country he’s lucky we’re not joining the rest of the world and saying you wanna start another bombing campaign in the Middle East away you go not interested.

Perhaps the embarrassing bit is the willingness to act without the assets to back it up.

I’m no friend of Biden, but I would like to think we are in this for the right reasons.

We provided a contribution that is roughly equivalent to any such contribution we have provided in the past so there is absolutely nothing to be embarrassed about.

The fact that this has been the maximum of our ability/ambition since 2010 is even more embarrassing.

[Repulse]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.

And what’s your point? Whether countries contribute/engage or not isn’t the argument, it’s what they can contribute when they do.

All those assets that you’ve listed above have been used by the French in the last decade and will be again. If the UK wants to really participate it needs to commit the assets and spend to do so, otherwise we are just the gobby kid stood behind the big kid.

[Jdam]

Seen this in the Navy look out article.

https://www.navylookout.com/what-is-the ... apability/

There is also very high global demand for Tomahawks right now and the UK would be in the queue with Japan, Netherlands & Australia.

We think about converting the ships to use Tomahawk but then there is getting the missiles.

[Dobbo]

The question is - is this a short term reaction to an issue that demands an immediate solution, or is it a realisation that over the next 15 years or so of the T45’s service life there may be other situations where it is desirable to have the capability to carry a loud out of TLAM.

The decision, if any, will tell us a lot about the question being asked.

[Ron5]

Yes bigger isn't always better particularly where you're talking about the optimisation of a ships noise signature and are changing the parameters of an already optimised hull.

T26 is considerably bigger, so it must be noisier? Utter nonsense.

Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.

You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.

Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?

$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.

Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.

Yes a lower level capability that some including high ranking admirals might call a second tier whether they play video games or not.

They don't.

Yes a lower level capability which if the cash is there for Mk41 can be upgraded to a very complimentary escort to T26\T45

Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.

Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.

I think you've gotten so knotted and twisted in your arguing, you've come full circle. Time for you to stop digging perhaps

[Jdam]

[tomuk]

Thinking about it, it might be a case of politicians announcing things again they have already announced. Saying that now all Type 45s will get NSM and by extension land attack capability.

Possibly, but don’t underestimate the embarrassment factor - must be atleast three times now our PM has had to speak to Biden on how the UK can contribute, and all three times the answer has been we will fly a few jets a thousand miles to drop a few bombs. I’m sure the question “if the French can do it why not the UK” comes to mind, exactly the same when Syria was hit.

France are making air strikes on the Houthis from Charles De Gaulle? Or are they using SCLAP on the FREMM?
France are operating outside the US led coalition waiting fie the EU led operation to form.

And what’s your point? Whether countries contribute/engage or not isn’t the argument, it’s what they can contribute when they do.

All those assets that you’ve listed above have been used by the French in the last decade and will be again. If the UK wants to really participate it needs to commit the assets and spend to do so, otherwise we are just the gobby kid stood behind the big kid.

Yes it is the point as you the one suggesting that we should be embarrassed compared to France.

If as you suggest Biden is calling Paris the answer he is getting is were not helping you as we're too busy in our own EU led operation

[tomuk]

Yes bigger isn't always better particularly where you're talking about the optimisation of a ships noise signature and are changing the parameters of an already optimised hull.

T26 is considerably bigger, so it must be noisier? Utter nonsense.

Again you miss the point. It isn't the gross size it is the size of the changes. If the hull has been optimised for a certain size and ou then go outside those margns there will be issues. Just with Hunter where the BAE Australia CEO is very careful not to deny that Hunter will have worse ASW performnce than T26 die to the weight gain but alternately confirms that it is still meets Au DOD requirements.

You are the one who made the comparison saying Constellation is the USN equivalent of RN T26. Despite as you keep saying the way both navies operate is very different.

Tiers were invented by video games? What are you on about? Was Zumwalt playing video games when he promoted a high low mix of ships in the USN?

$5 to you if you can find a quote from Zumwalt including the term "Tier 2". The problem I have with the comments here including that phrase suggest an false equivalence between T31 & Constellation i.e. Type 31 has less capability than Type 26 so because T26 is Tier 1, T31 must be Tier 2. Constellation has less capability than Tier 1 Arleigh Burke so Constellation must be Tier 2. Therefore Tier 2 Type 31 equals Tier 2 Type 31. QED.

Again no it there isn't false equivalence the two Navies are different the Tiers land at different levels of capability.

Yes a lower level capability that some including high ranking admirals might call a second tier whether they play video games or not.

They don't.

Yes a lower level capability which if the cash is there for Mk41 can be upgraded to a very complimentary escort to T26\T45

Adding a Mk 41 to a Type 31 will give it a capability comparable to a Constellation?? Give me a break.

Again you're the one making a false equivalency. I'm not saying it gives a comparable capability to an AB.

I think you've gotten so knotted and twisted in your arguing, you've come full circle. Time for you to stop digging perhaps

No I'm completely consistent with what I have argued but as always you just post in bad faith.

[abc123]

Yes it is the point as you the one suggesting that we should be embarrassed compared to France.

If as you suggest Biden is calling Paris the answer he is getting is were not helping you as we're too busy in our own EU led operation

The point is clearly that the UKs contribution to these operations when it comes to offensive strike is limited. Yes, Cyprus is valuable and the air assets from there have contributed, but in a limited way. The point is the French can do that, plus have frigates with cruise missiles, plus bring in CdG. This whole discussion is about the UK needing more arrows in its bow - the CVFs/F35Bs will bring another, but we need more.

[Fr0sty125]

I wonder how many aster they have burnt through downing £20k drones…

[Poiuytrewq]

I wonder how many aster they have burnt through downing £20k drones…

And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?

How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?

Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.

[SW1]

I wonder how many aster they have burnt through downing £20k drones…

And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?

How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?

Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.

Why would any single ship have to deal with that on its own and not as part of a task group multinational or otherwise

[Poiuytrewq]

Why would any single ship have to deal with that on its own and not as part of a task group multinational or otherwise

More ships bigger swarm or multiple swarms.

Each 50 drone swarm costs around $1m at $20k unit.

Surface swarms will be more expensive but could a T45 even handle a dozen such drones at night?

[RichardIC]

I wonder how many aster they have burnt through downing £20k drones…

And how confident is everyone now in dealing with a 50 or 100 drone swarm with only 48x Aster and backed up by the 30mm and Phalanx?

How would a T45/T23 deal with a surface swarm especially at night with a high sea state?

Many questions but the gaps in capability are obvious.

A high sea state will deter a surface swarm, maybe stop it entirely.

[SW1]

Why would any single ship have to deal with that on its own and not as part of a task group multinational or otherwise

More ships bigger swarm or multiple swarms.

Each 50 drone swarm costs around $1m at $20k unit.

Surface swarms will be more expensive but could a T45 even handle a dozen such drones at night?

I’m not sure it translates linearly. There is passive means of stopping these things too. If you have to counter the passive systems the cost of the drone goes up. If it has to go more than 10 miles off shore the cost goes up. And there is multiple different capabilities as part of a task group

Well a type 45 has wildcat and several gun systems so it has capabilities against surface drones with gd all weather and night sensors. And that multiples if there in a task group