Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote:No, we didn’t… we always understood that space to be in front of the Sylver silos, exactly where the mushrooms are going…
:thumbup:

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote:The question I want to see answered is whether at least some Aster 30s are being upgraded to Block 1NT, to give the ships some ABM capability…
Copied this from MBDA. Not sure this provides enough defense for the CSG. But I'm not at all familiar with the capabilities of Russian and Chinese anti-ship systems so that doesn't mean a lot.
Aster 30 Block 1NT modification consists in a new seeker operating in Ka band and a new weapon controller and retains same size, mass and booster:
 Extension of the Extended Air Defence domain
 Current Aster 30 Block 1 missile with Ku-band seeker allows for neutralization of 600 km range ballistic threats (Scud class)
 Aster 30 Block 1NT Ka-band seeker brings
 Increased target acquisition range
 Acquisition of targets with lower radar cross section
 Thinner angular resolution for increased accuracy of target localisation
 Increased direct impact probability
 Increased footprint of defended areas
 Full compatibility and interoperability across ground and naval systems
All these features bring a step change in capability:
 Aster 30 Block 1NT covers the entire SRBM (Short Range Ballistic Missile) threat domain and the entry of the MRBM (Medium Range) domain up to 1.500 km range
 Aster 30 Block 1NT is capable of coping with Tactical Ballistic Missiles with separable warheads
 Combined use of Ku-band and Ka-band Asters will provide increased resistance to Electronic Counter Measures

inch
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by inch »

Can someone tell me if the 24 camm is using all the 16 cell redundancy space , And no more space left after this ? Cheers folks ,keep trying to work it out and can't lol

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The question I want to see answered is whether at least some Aster 30s are being upgraded to Block 1NT, to give the ships some ABM capability…
Copied this from MBDA. Not sure this provides enough defense for the CSG. But I'm not at all familiar with the capabilities of Russian and Chinese anti-ship systems so that doesn't mean a lot.
Aster 30 Block 1NT modification consists in a new seeker operating in Ka band and a new weapon controller and retains same size, mass and booster:
 Extension of the Extended Air Defence domain
 Current Aster 30 Block 1 missile with Ku-band seeker allows for neutralization of 600 km range ballistic threats (Scud class)
 Aster 30 Block 1NT Ka-band seeker brings
 Increased target acquisition range
 Acquisition of targets with lower radar cross section
 Thinner angular resolution for increased accuracy of target localisation
 Increased direct impact probability
 Increased footprint of defended areas
 Full compatibility and interoperability across ground and naval systems
All these features bring a step change in capability:
 Aster 30 Block 1NT covers the entire SRBM (Short Range Ballistic Missile) threat domain and the entry of the MRBM (Medium Range) domain up to 1.500 km range
 Aster 30 Block 1NT is capable of coping with Tactical Ballistic Missiles with separable warheads
 Combined use of Ku-band and Ka-band Asters will provide increased resistance to Electronic Counter Measures
Yes, Block 1NT would allow Aster 30 to deal with DF-21-class threats… it still leaves the DF-26 and hypersonic threats out, but it’s much better than the current SRBM-only system…

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

inch wrote:Can someone tell me if the 24 camm is using all the 16 cell redundancy space , And no more space left after this ? Cheers folks ,keep trying to work it out and can't lol
Depends which VLS is used but if, as most are guessing, the T26 mushrooms are chosen then they will take all the area but not the depth.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:Copied this from MBDA. Not sure this provides enough defense for the CSG. But I'm not at all familiar with the capabilities of Russian and Chinese anti-ship systems so that doesn't mean a lot.
There's a video from MBDA on the Ka band seeker and what it brings to 30 NT.


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

That might be the worst video I have seen. Looks like that old video game ping pong but less exciting :yawn:

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jake1992 »

Timmymagic wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I don’t understand why the RN seems to so adverse to introducing EXcL to use CAMM to its fullest, Canadian is biting the bullet on its T26s but we seem to be obsessed with the inefficient mushroom set up.
RN seems to think that its 'Mushroom Farm' is more resistant to shock and other environmental factors.

It will be interesting to see if the Sea Ceptor cells are protected by an extended barrier, from the Sylver VLS farm. The T23's Sea Ceptor installation gets similar environmental protection in the old Sea Wolf installation.
I can’t see that as a legitimate reason as they seem to believe the door/shutter system what ever you want to call it on the sylver and Mk41 silos are perfectly fine in those same conditions so why would it be any different on EXsL system ?

On the T23s I could understand reusing what was there but on new builds like the T26/T31 or on new installs like the T45 it makes no sence not to maximise the space and used the compact packing CAMM offers even if you don’t fill all the silos all the time.

Like I pointed out in the same space as these 24 mushroom cells you could fit 15 EXsL cells giving the T45s up to 48 aster 30s and 60 CAMM / CAMM-ER missiles.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Ron5 wrote:
inch wrote:Can someone tell me if the 24 camm is using all the 16 cell redundancy space , And no more space left after this ? Cheers folks ,keep trying to work it out and can't lol
Depends which VLS is used but if, as most are guessing, the T26 mushrooms are chosen then they will take all the area but not the depth.
Indeed. There'll still be plenty of room for the gym.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Jake1992 wrote:
Timmymagic wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:I don’t understand why the RN seems to so adverse to introducing EXcL to use CAMM to its fullest, Canadian is biting the bullet on its T26s but we seem to be obsessed with the inefficient mushroom set up.
RN seems to think that its 'Mushroom Farm' is more resistant to shock and other environmental factors.

It will be interesting to see if the Sea Ceptor cells are protected by an extended barrier, from the Sylver VLS farm. The T23's Sea Ceptor installation gets similar environmental protection in the old Sea Wolf installation.
I can’t see that as a legitimate reason as they seem to believe the door/shutter system what ever you want to call it on the sylver and Mk41 silos are perfectly fine in those same conditions so why would it be any different on EXsL system ?

On the T23s I could understand reusing what was there but on new builds like the T26/T31 or on new installs like the T45 it makes no sence not to maximise the space and used the compact packing CAMM offers even if you don’t fill all the silos all the time.

Like I pointed out in the same space as these 24 mushroom cells you could fit 15 EXsL cells giving the T45s up to 48 aster 30s and 60 CAMM / CAMM-ER missiles.
Jake

Simple answer is its too expensive. The mushroom farm is an order of magnitude simpler than Mk41 and or Exls. Also the trials/verification work for use in RN service will cover T26/T31 and T45. £££££

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

We have also traditionally protected out Launchers from the Damage rough seas could cause as the North Atlantic was our main operating area. Compare our old Ikara ASW launchers to those of the RAN.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by J. Tattersall »

Ron5 wrote:
tomuk wrote:From the press releases it is clear that Aster 15 is being binned
Timmymagic wrote:
J. Tattersall wrote:Why would the gun need to rotate through 360 degrees?
Sometimes when running through heavy seas the turret will be rotated through 360 to reduce the possibility of strain on the barrel and mounting.
I was intrigued by this but my google can't find a picture although it did find a T45 in rough seas ..

Image
Never seen that done at sea nor heard of it before. Can't quite see how a 360 rotation reduces stresses (not strain) on the barrel and mount.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

J. Tattersall wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
tomuk wrote:From the press releases it is clear that Aster 15 is being binned
Timmymagic wrote:
J. Tattersall wrote:Why would the gun need to rotate through 360 degrees?
Sometimes when running through heavy seas the turret will be rotated through 360 to reduce the possibility of strain on the barrel and mounting.
I was intrigued by this but my google can't find a picture although it did find a T45 in rough seas ..

Image
Never seen that done at sea nor heard of it before. Can't quite see how a 360 rotation reduces stresses (not strain) on the barrel and mount.
Type 42 HMS Cardiff during Falklands War
Image

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

There have been some discussions about the countering of hypersonic missiles,I have included these articles the first suggesting there is not any present counter
https://partyardmilitary.com/hypersonic ... e-stopped/
A National interest article suggesting the SM-3 2A can shoot down ballistic missiles which China disputes
https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/3 ... ic-missile
This article suggests that there may be a future Aster block 2 capable of shooting down hypersonic missiles
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... stem-82486
I would wonder if the R.N is looking for this capability in defense of its carriers or even shore targets

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

And the US Navy is trying out the new SM-6 Block 1B in hypersonic missile defence…

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/4 ... nic-weapon

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Timmymagic »

seaspear wrote:This article suggests that there may be a future Aster block 2 capable of shooting down hypersonic missiles
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... stem-82486
I would wonder if the R.N is looking for this capability in defense of its carriers or even shore targets
MBDA have actually been looking at a ramjet missile for dealing with manoeuvering hypersonic gliders....looked rather like a Meteor...

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Timmymagic wrote:
seaspear wrote:This article suggests that there may be a future Aster block 2 capable of shooting down hypersonic missiles
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... stem-82486
I would wonder if the R.N is looking for this capability in defense of its carriers or even shore targets
MBDA have actually been looking at a ramjet missile for dealing with manoeuvering hypersonic gliders....looked rather like a Meteor...
To my uneducated eyes an Aster successor based on the concept of Meteor with a booster sounds like the obvious direction to go in.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: Type 42 HMS Cardiff during Falklands War
Image
Seas doesn't look rough in that photo. Much more likely the turret was turned to clean the barrel after a shoot.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

 OCCAR-EA, Organisation for Joint Armament Cooperation for European armament cooperation press release a few days ago, contract was signed early June, a few quotes
IT & UK ASTER MID LIFE UPDATE PRODUCTION - SIGNATURE OF THE S&E CONTRACT AMENDMENT 8

On 05 July 2021, a ceremony was held in OCCAR-EA premises (Paris area) to celebrate the signature of the Amendment 8 to the “Sustainment & Enhancement” contract to launch the Mid-Life-Update (MLU) production of ASTER missiles for Italy and the United Kingdom.
The contract had already been signed on 09 June 2021.

The global MLU production Programme will cover the retrofit of about 1000 ASTER missiles, starting from 2023 for the following 13 years, with a total value of more than 1.2 billion euros.
Average mid life upgrade cost just over £1 million per missile, complicating factor maybe also upgrading Aster 15s to 30 as well as to Block 1NT standard, plus don't know the split of the 1,000 missiles between Italy and UK, a lot of unknowns, a wild guess approx RN stock 300 Asters, cost £300 to £400 million for upgrades with the balance of the T45 £500 million upgrade budget for CAMM?

From <http://www.occar.int/it-uk-aster-mid-li ... ews%23news>

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

imperialman wrote:MBDA UK has been awarded an 11-year contract to integrate the Common Anti-Air Modular Missile, often referred to as Sea Ceptor, into the Type 45 destroyers’ Sea Viper weapon systems. In addition to this, a 10-year contract with Eurosam will provide a refresh of the Aster 30 missiles that are currently in use. Currently, the Type 45 destroyers use a combination of short-range Aster 15 and long-range Aster 30 anti-air missiles to engage and destroy enemy threats.

To facilitate the introduction of Sea Ceptor (CAMM), a new 24-missile silo will be added in front of the current 48-missile Aster 30 silos, therefore increasing the overall missile capacity of the vessels by 50 per cent. This will result in a total capacity of 72 anti-air missiles per destroyer.
NickC wrote: On 05 July 2021, a ceremony was held in OCCAR-EA premises (Paris area) to celebrate the signature of the Amendment 8 to the “Sustainment & Enhancement” contract to launch the Mid-Life-Update (MLU) production of ASTER missiles for Italy and the United Kingdom. ...
The global MLU production Programme will cover the retrofit of about 1000 ASTER missiles, starting from 2023 for the following 13 years, with a total value of more than 1.2 billion euros.

Average mid life upgrade cost just over £1 million per missile ... a wild guess approx RN stock 300 Asters, cost £300 to £400 million for upgrades with the balance of the T45 £500 million upgrade budget for CAMM?
NickC wrote: I did email NAO and today they confirmed the £90 million for GFA (of T31) was for whole class, not per ship...
1: £500M for SeaViper upgrade (analysis power, integration of CAMM), and "refresh of the Aster 30 missiles" for T45.

2: 1.2 billion euros to retrofit about 1000 ASTER missiles. If about 300 Aster 30s are of UK, about "£300M" will be spent there.

3: "Adding SeaCeptor software, 2 data link antenna, 1 LMS and 12 launchers to 5 hulls of T31" is £90M. So, T45's "24 CAMM each" shall be less than £90x2 =£180. May be £150?

In this case, items-1,2,3 becomes consistent (as there are many hidden cost, it ought not be consistent, but let's assume all announcements are honest :D

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

4. Cost of upgrading aster 15's to Aster 30's: £0. It's the same missile with a different booster. Unless more boosters are acquired but that was not mentioned.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Ron5 wrote:4. Cost of upgrading aster 15's to Aster 30's: £0. It's the same missile with a different booster. Unless more boosters are acquired but that was not mentioned.
Even making assumption that RN original buy of Asters and agreeing split of 15s and 30s they then went to the added expense of purchasing spare Aster 30 boosters for the 15s, would not be surprised if the boosters are lifed and does no seem sensible just to leave them on the shelf even in an environmentally and security controlled warehouse. My guess is as good as yours but think they will manufacture new Aster 30 boosters and included in price along with the mid life update to Block 1NT missile standard.

What ever they will still have the expense of detaching Aster 15 booster, then in special facility that's explosive proof maybe with special machinery required dismantle booster into its constituent parts and environmentally dispose of the propellant etc according to very stringent and no doubt costly regulations.

PR includes following sentence
The activities performed in the Italian and United Kingdom facilities will be technically supported by MBDA and that includes the disposal of the replaced missile parts in line with the latest environmental standards.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

HMS Diamond remained in Augusta port, apparently gas turbine defect

https://www.navylookout.com/hms-diamond ... eployment/
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tinman »

abc123 wrote:HMS Diamond remained in Augusta port, apparently gas turbine defect

https://www.navylookout.com/hms-diamond ... eployment/
Saw that yesterday, sensational headline, a deeper read suggests it will be repaired and will rejoin the CSG.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

9th July PR by Eurosam the Franco-Italian consortium producer of Asters - SAMP/T

Mentions the half life upgrade for UK will be carried out at Defense Munitions, Gosport.
The ASTER Block 1 NT (new technology) with a new seeker and a new computer capable of countering modern threats
emerging. It will allow a radar detection range greater than 300 km and an interception range of 150 km

A new generation of SAMP / T systems (land based Aster version), called SAMP / T NG, has been commissioned by France and
Italy and will be delivered starting in 2025. Thanks to its 360 ° capability, this system already provides protection of vital resources against threats omnidirectional over large areas, well over 15,000 km², with an actual altitude of more than 20,000 meters and at distances well over 50 km.
To note first delivers of Aster 1NT 2025 if same as SAMP/T NG, presuming the new seeker enables the range increase from the previously quoted 120 km to 150 km/~80 nm and perhaps improved propellant, dual thrust motor?

https://www.eurosam.com/wp-content/uplo ... -ASTER.pdf

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