Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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RunningStrong
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Because a Bofors (or any AAA) is going to be useless against a manoeuvring target?
57mm Orka goes someway to addressing that
Range 8km, Muzzle velocity 1000m/s, ToF 8+ secs.

How does that hit a manoeuvring target?
By manoeuvring as well that is the point of Orka
That's a gross exaggeration of Orka's capability.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RunningStrong wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:
RunningStrong wrote:Because a Bofors (or any AAA) is going to be useless against a manoeuvring target?
57mm Orka goes someway to addressing that
Range 8km, Muzzle velocity 1000m/s, ToF 8+ secs. How does that hit a manoeuvring target?
By manoeuvring as well that is the point of Orka
That's a gross exaggeration of Orka's capability.
Orca is not for AAW, but for anti-fast-boat swarm. The only remaining AAW round program is MADFIRES.

But, anyway, I understand 57 mm guided round is NOT against a highly maneuvering target. It is also not for super-sonic ASMs. But, against simple and cheap ASMs, it may work well. Those cheap ASMs are so cheap that its unit cost might be cheaper than a single CAMM, not so say Aster. I understand, 20mm Phalanx, 57 mm 3P, 57 mm MADFIRES, CAMM, and Aster will form layers of AAW assets.

As highly agile ASM and super sonic ASM are quite expensive, we shall spend expensive SAMs against them. Simple, I think.

Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

If I understand it correctly, the MoD announced 3 new contracts at DSEI last week, in addition to the Dragonfire contract announced at a previous DSEI in 2019.

1. Thales will lead a consortium to develop a laser system to be trialed on a Type 23 frigate in 2023. The membership of this consortium doesn't include any Dragonfire team members.

2. Thales will lead a different consortium to develop a radio frequency system to be mounted on an army truck to counter UAV's. QenetiQ, a Dragonfire team member is part of this.

3. Raytheon UK will lead yet another consortium to trial a US Raytheon laser on an army Wolfhound. No overlap with Dragonfire.

4. The Dragonfire team announced 2 years ago that it would be trialing its system at sea in 2023.

Very little new Dragonfire news has come out since the initial announcement. Rumors persist that they have had problems but, of course, that could just be COVID related. Nothing was mentioned about Dragonfire at the show and as far as I know, the Dragonfire consortium didn't release any press statements or have a stand or system example. Unlike previous DSEI.

It's very true to say that in the absence of any formal cancellation announcement, Dragonfire could be well and kicking. But, in the absence of anything from the Dragonfire team (and wouldn't DSEI be a great place to make some buzz?) it's fair to speculate that the program has been quietly side lined in favor of these new initiatives.

RunningStrong
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RunningStrong »

Ron5 wrote:.
It's very true to say that in the absence of any formal cancellation announcement, Dragonfire could be well and kicking. But, in the absence of anything from the Dragonfire team (and wouldn't DSEI be a great place to make some buzz?) it's fair to speculate that the program has been quietly side lined in favor of these new initiatives.
I think you're misunderstanding what the purpose of Dragonfire programme is in the larger picture. It's not intended to provide a marketable project in the near term, it's very much a long-term investment in UK laser weapon capability and is intended to develop that capability well into the late 2020's and beyond. The programme is very much alive.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/global/europe/ ... acy-boost/

The DSEi announcements were very much based on the current state of the art, current technology being brought to market to meet a current needs against unmanned aerial vehicles.

Defiance
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

So there are a few tracks of LDEW development going on
  • Ratheon UK (+ others) are providng a land-based LDEW for 6 months of user experimentation with the Army - this is to be based on a Wolfhound and will be looking at C-UAS and against land-based targets. It'll be an opportunity to experiment with how you actually operate an LDEW, RoE etc.
  • Thales UK (+ others) are providing a LDEW in the maritime domain under Project Tracey for user experimentation in 2023. Similar overall goals to the first experimentation as fundamentally both services are at the same point when it comes to deploying an LDEW
  • Thales UK have also been contracted to provide an RF DEW (high power microwave probably) for 6 months of user experimentation with the Army in 2023 - to be based on a MAN SV
These experimentations are all being directed by Team Hersa - the DEW centre of excellence within DSTL. Their remit is to prepare the defence enterprise for the introduction of innovative weapon systems and will focus on operation and maintenance. Very much looking from a 'how do we exploit LDEW' perspective.

Dragonfire is a seperate initiative within DSTL which is primarily based on technology demonstration and development for 'next generation' LDEW capability. The two streams (if you count those 3 demonstrators together) have complementary characteristics where each effort will support the other. It isn't a question of X vs Y.

As to why they aren't going to use the Dragonfire system to demonstrate, or use the Thales UK system operationally, I have no idea. But for now that is how the overall program is set up.

(This is all from Janes, nothing that isn't already out there. For what it's worth i'm about 70% sure I saw a Dragonfire mock up at the MBDA stand in some imagery from this year but I may be mistaken)

jonas
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

jonas wrote:written answers 23rd sept 2021:-

https://questions-statements.parliament ... 9-20/51888
11 years?? Good thing they are not in a hurry. How many completely new warships will the Chinese have built in this time frame? Effing pathetic.

Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Defiance wrote:So there are a few tracks of LDEW development going on
  • Ratheon UK (+ others) are providng a land-based LDEW for 6 months of user experimentation with the Army - this is to be based on a Wolfhound and will be looking at C-UAS and against land-based targets. It'll be an opportunity to experiment with how you actually operate an LDEW, RoE etc.
  • Thales UK (+ others) are providing a LDEW in the maritime domain under Project Tracey for user experimentation in 2023. Similar overall goals to the first experimentation as fundamentally both services are at the same point when it comes to deploying an LDEW
  • Thales UK have also been contracted to provide an RF DEW (high power microwave probably) for 6 months of user experimentation with the Army in 2023 - to be based on a MAN SV
These experimentations are all being directed by Team Hersa - the DEW centre of excellence within DSTL. Their remit is to prepare the defence enterprise for the introduction of innovative weapon systems and will focus on operation and maintenance. Very much looking from a 'how do we exploit LDEW' perspective.

Dragonfire is a seperate initiative within DSTL which is primarily based on technology demonstration and development for 'next generation' LDEW capability. The two streams (if you count those 3 demonstrators together) have complementary characteristics where each effort will support the other. It isn't a question of X vs Y.

As to why they aren't going to use the Dragonfire system to demonstrate, or use the Thales UK system operationally, I have no idea. But for now that is how the overall program is set up.

(This is all from Janes, nothing that isn't already out there. For what it's worth i'm about 70% sure I saw a Dragonfire mock up at the MBDA stand in some imagery from this year but I may be mistaken)
Firstly, yes there was a tiny Dragonfire model on the MBDA stand. I haven't seen any photo of the full size mockup. I don't think it was there.

Secondly, I think you just repeated what I wrote in my post. Four work streams. Two of which (Thales laser on a T23 and Dragonfire laser at sea, both in the same year) that seem to have a huge overlap.

And given the cash shortage at the ministry, I'm still extremely surprised the Navy paying for both. As I said, the cynic in me says Dragonfire is in trouble otherwise we'd have been buried under press releases on how wonderful its been performing at Shoeburyness since it was taken there in 2018.

Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

RunningStrong wrote:The programme is very much alive.

https://www.c4isrnet.com/global/europe/ ... acy-boost/
Yes, that is the one and only Dragonfire reference google will show from the past couple of years. From Italy. About the aiming system.

RunningStrong wrote:The DSEi announcements were very much based on the current state of the art, current technology being brought to market to meet a current needs against unmanned aerial vehicles.
Angling for a job in marketing? Wouldn't blame you for a career move :D

Defiance
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

Ron5 wrote: Secondly, I think you just repeated what I wrote in my post. Four work streams. Two of which (Thales laser on a T23 and Dragonfire laser at sea, both in the same year) that seem to have a huge overlap.
Not knowingly, I missed your post and dug out the material myself

Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Defiance wrote:
Ron5 wrote: Secondly, I think you just repeated what I wrote in my post. Four work streams. Two of which (Thales laser on a T23 and Dragonfire laser at sea, both in the same year) that seem to have a huge overlap.
Not knowingly, I missed your post and dug out the material myself
I hate to admit it but your description was leagues better than mine :thumbup:

I hope you're right too. Dragonfire looks so cool and has too great a name to fail.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Well as lasers aren't going to be the desired "Wonder weapon" for a good few years yet, I hope we concentrate on things closer to the here and now, like the CAMM installation on the T-45's, the Interim AShM for the ready T-23's and realising that the T-31 could do with some more love and the MoD should splash out on fixtures and fittings so it can carry twenty four CAMM when needed, and/or the Interim AShMs if the T-23's aren't using them.


Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Well as lasers aren't going to be the desired "Wonder weapon" for a good few years yet, I hope we concentrate on things closer to the here and now, like the CAMM installation on the T-45's, the Interim AShM for the ready T-23's and realising that the T-31 could do with some more love and the MoD should splash out on fixtures and fittings so it can carry twenty four CAMM when needed, and/or the Interim AShMs if the T-23's aren't using them.
CAMM on Type 45's to be completed in 2032. A couple or so years before their nominal out of service dates start.

I-SSGW for only towed array fitted Type 23's and decision/order delayed yet again. Maybe more likely to go to the Type 26's?

Why is everyone fixed on 24 CAMM for the Type 31? The outgoing T23's have 32 and the system limit (and number fitted to the T26) is 48. And why not the CAMM-ER? Even the army is getting that :D

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SKB
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »


(Navy Lookout) 24th September 2021
The medium-long term outlook for the Type 45s is good with the propulsion issues resolved and Sea Ceptor being fitted between 2026-32. The picture is disappointing right now with HMS Dauntless still in Birkenhead as the PIP engineers struggle to integrate the new diesel generators. As the first of the class to undergo the process, difficulties were to be expected but it now seems she is unlikely to be back in Portsmouth before early 2022, the “6-month” project having over-run by about a year.

HMS Daring has been towed to Birkenhead to start her PIP. She will then have to return to Portsmouth to complete her main refit and will probably not be operational before 2024.

HMS Duncan is in the final stages of a very challenging major refit. HMS Dragon has been active this year. HMS Defender has had an outstanding #CSG21 deployment so far while HMS Diamond is set to rejoin the CSG after a delay of 7 weeks repairing a major engine defect in Italy. Video: PortsmouthProud

Defiance
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Defiance »

All because RR/NG pulled a real good smoke-and-mirrors trick around the maturity of WR-21 and underlined 'UK jobs' three times in red pen.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

IF Sea Ceptor is deemed to be needed, why on earth are they waiting five years until they actually start the programme? It is as bad as the Army waiting nearly ten years to be able to fight again.

Jdam
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jdam »

I guess the engine update may take priority and with so few type 45s they don't have enough for them for Type 45 to be out of action for a weapon and engine upgrades or out of action for long enough to do both (even tho it is the perfect time to do them).

But the point is 100% valid Sea Ceptor is a fully developed system and as its taking 5 years to even start adding them to the ships, this doesn't scream priority, the same can be said of the relaxed attitude we are taking to replacing harpoon.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Ron5
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Jdam wrote:I guess the engine update may take priority and with so few type 45s they don't have enough for them for Type 45 to be out of action for a weapon and engine upgrades or out of action for long enough to do both (even tho it is the perfect time to do them).

But the point is 100% valid Sea Ceptor is a fully developed system and as its taking 5 years to even start adding them to the ships, this doesn't scream priority, the same can be said of the relaxed attitude we are taking to replacing harpoon.
I bet "we" = Treasury :(

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SKB
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Jensy
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

Rather unfortunate:


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Digger22 »

Mmmmm....
As PIP times get longer, I wonder what the actual bill will be.
Makes you think how much a complete new build and stretched aft section with MT30 power would have been.
Ships remaining in service till new bit built, then a quick cut and shut.

Job done.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Scimitar54 »

Add a second 48 x Tube Silva Silo at the same time and what have you got? A Type 85 ! :mrgreen:

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ETH
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ETH »

Ron5 wrote:
Jdam wrote:Didn't Dauntless radar get an upgrade during the PIP as well?
Sampson did, don't know about the SM1850.
Upgrade or just a maintenance refresher like S1850M?

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