Scotland (Political Thread)

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Scottish Independence?

Political Independence (Retain Monarchy)
6
7%
Full Independence (No Monarchy or Commonwealth)
13
16%
Stay In The United Kingdom
61
75%
Emigrate To Ireland
1
1%
 
Total votes: 81

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Halidon
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Halidon »

SKB wrote:UK will never accept federalisation. That's why we just had a referendum to get out of an EU which is determined to form a federal union of member states.
I'm not sure where you're going with this statement. The reasons commonly cited for leaving the EU included loss of sovereignty and self-determination to the EC, etc. If the UK reorganized itself as a federal union it would almost exclusively effect internal politics, I'm not sure how the organization of the EU comes into play. The UK can federalize or not and the EU can federalize, die, or disco dance the centuries away without one directly effecting the other. Unless you're saying the EU experience has caused an extreme distaste for the idea of federalism in any form in any application, in which case i apoligize for the discomfort my country's existence much cause you, but that seems a bit silly.

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Because many people voted to leave the EU because we did not want the United Kingdom to become absorbed into a federation of member states, be stripped of our unique national identities and differences, then all merged into one singular European entity with one singular identity and become a "United States of Europe" - which is the EU's ultimate dream and goal.

Anyway, federations are for countries who are republics, like Germany and France. We are the UK, a Constitutional Monarchy. We tried that republican thing for a while after the English Civil War and that resulted in some very, very bad stuff.... ;)

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by WhitestElephant »

Galloglass wrote:Well SKB......As I said before the Referrendum..."Careful what you wish for".....Redesigning flags is a bit like rearranging deckchairs on the Titanic if Holyrood jumps in the next few months "federalisation" may not even be on offer. To preserve the "UK" the best option would be to negotiate Sco/NI staying in the EU while Eng/Wal leave......I.m sure there would be a lot of support for that in the EU.
I think you are greatly over-egging the importance of Scotland in the UK. They represent about 8% of the population and 5% of the GDP.

For comparisons sake, during the 2008 financial crisis, the UK lost 6.2% of its GDP... hardly the "Titanic" scenario.

In other words, if Scotland does leave, the rUK would still have a larger economy than France and a larger population than Italy.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

NON! EU slaps down Sturgeon
Image
The EU yesterday dealt a devastating blow to Nicola Sturgeon's new bid for independence - by ruling out any prospect of Scotland retaining its EU membership when Britain leaves.

The SNP leader yesterday said she is seeking 'immediate discussions' with Brussels to 'protect Scotland's place in the EU'. But The Scottish Mail on Sunday can reveal that the European Commission, the executive body of the EU, has already ruled there is no option but the whole of the UK exiting following Thursday's shock Leave vote.

Miss Sturgeon had hoped to hold a referendum during the next two years while Brexit negotiations take place - and had wanted Scotland to simply and seamlessly remain in the EU if there was a Yes vote. But the new ruling by Brussels dashes her hopes, by confirming that an independent Scotland would have to reapply for EU membership.

Such a move could take years and come with conditions, such as having to adopt the Euro and introduce border controls with England.
The official ruling confirmed that 'part' of a member state 'cannot remain in the EU if the member state itself withdraws'.
More: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4CjCdede0

So border controls to your biggest market (England) eh, Nicola? So much for free trade. :)

handal
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by handal »

Yup a "lady" who wants eat her cake and have it.

This disingenuous backstabbing is exactly what I was expecting from her:



It would have got us stuck there potentially forever too :evil:

R686
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by R686 »

SKB wrote:
Anyway, federations are for countries who are republics, like Germany and France. We are the UK, a Constitutional Monarchy. We tried that republican thing for a while after the English Civil War and that resulted in some very, very bad stuff.... ;)

Australia is a federation under constitutional monarchy and the Commonwealth realm

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Prime Minister just made a good point, if Scotland had left the UK in 2014, they wouldn't be in the EU now anyway! Scotland as a newly independant country would now be on the 10 year long waiting list and process to join the EU.;)

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »


marktigger
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by marktigger »

the Scots got Their chance in 2014 maybe IndyRef2 should be run in England, Wales and Northern Ireland with Scotland staying or going by popular opinion of the Rest of the UK and the Scots having to convince the rest of us why they should stay?

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Cooper
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Cooper »

What really annoys me about the way the SNP & their supporters are carrying on is the sheer two faced hypocrisy of their position as regards a 2nd referendum.

A. No matter what the outcome of the EU referendum, they were always going to be manoeuvring & scheming to get another independence referendum by whatever means necessary, completely ignoring the 2014 result.

B. If they'd won their 2014 vote, they would have been out of the EU anyway.


Whoever is the next Prime Minister needs to lay the law down to this woman, what she's been trying to do in the last week is way beyond her remit and she has no authority on such matters.

If she wants another referendum she should wait until the 2021 elections with a clear commitment to a 2nd referendum and run on that manifesto, if she then attains a majority government on it, then fair enough, let them have a vote.

..but until then, she should be told in no uncertain terms, to STFU.

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Galloglass
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

I'm afraid the notion that Westminster can "command" Holyrood to do anything is an illusion folks......The Scottish parliament has been re-constituted and to an increasing degree what happens in London is irrelevant in Scotland.

I can't really get my head around why Unionists expect their their wishes to be "enforced" by London.....How exactly? ...........Arrest Nicola and the SNP/Greens etc? .....by the Scottish Police who are employed by the Scottish govt?.....Perhaps by a Scottish Army Regt?....Surely not .

If you're interested in preserving the Union I would advise the 2 year negotiations involve finding a way to let Scotland stay in the EU.

If the Westminster ever triggers the process of course.

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Cooper
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Cooper »

Galloglass wrote: If you're interested in preserving the Union I would advise the 2 year negotiations involve finding a way to let Scotland stay in the EU.
Not going to happen, Scotland is leaving the EU now, as long as they remain a part of the UK.

The likes of Spain and France (and others) have made it perfectly clear to Sturgeon that they will not enter into any talks with the SNP over any attempts to split the UK apart.

Right now the SNP are choosing to ignore what they've been told, but that won't change the reality of the situation.

The only course open to them is to have another referendum on independence before the UK formally exits the EU and then apply for membership as a separate nation, but are the people of Scotland ready for the economic shit storm that will come their way in order to meet the criteria for membership? I doubt it.

They will lose £10 billion in fiscal transfers from the rUK, the only thing keeping them afloat right now with a 10% budget deficit, reducing that to the 3% required for EU membership will require Greek levels of austerity.

Westminster would be perfectly within it's legal rights to refuse any attempt at a second referendum, which I hope they would do, as the SNP have no majority and no mandate to hold one, being on the losing side of a UK wide referendum does not legally entitle them to do anything other than accept the result.

If they want to remain part of the EU, then they're going to have to do it the hard way, like any other country.

bobp
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by bobp »

The last thing we need at the moment with the country in disarray is Nicola spouting her mouth off.

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Galloglass
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

Bob
"The last thing we need at the moment with the country in disarray is Nicola spouting her mouth off"......
Just my opinion but Scotland doesn't seem to be in disarray

Cooper
"Westminster would be perfectly within it's legal rights to refuse any attempt at a second referendum, which I hope they would do, as the SNP have no majority and no mandate to hold one"
If the Scottish govt calls one (not the SNP) there will be one....unless Holyrood is satisfied by Scotlands position during the Brexit negotiations.
"Westminster Legality" will not make one bit of difference .....It is unenforcable.

Defcon 1
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Defcon 1 »

Galloglass wrote: "Westminster Legality" will not make one bit of difference .....It is unenforcable
Butting in here, I'm afraid you don't understand how it works, all constitutional matters are reserved to Westminster, without Westminster agreement any referendum is not legal and will not be recognised as such by anyone and that will include the EU.

Do you really think the likes of Spain, Belgium would ever accept Scotland joining the EU via an illegal referendum given their own problems with separatists? Not a chance in hell

There are rules that have to be followed and if the SNP try and ignore these rules I can guarantee there will be chaos in Scotland and it won't be all peaceful.

Little J
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Little J »

Galloglass wrote: If the Scottish govt calls one (not the SNP) there will be one....unless Holyrood is satisfied by Scotlands position during the Brexit negotiations.
"Westminster Legality" will not make one bit of difference .....It is unenforceable.
As has been pointed out, Scotland can only ask nicely "please can we have another one of those once in a life time referendum's".
Sturgeon is only doing this because, for some unknown reason, Scottish voters think she tells the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, making her the only politician every to do so.

The EU has already told Sturgeon (before the first referendum) that it doesn't matter if Scotland is part of the UK or not (or if the UK is part of the EU or not), Scotland would have to apply to join just the same as the likes of Turkey etc., i.e. at the back of a ten year minimum waiting list.

bobp
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by bobp »

If Scotland goes for independence it risks losing its major trading partner the UK. Never mind the EU. And if the SNP has a minority in Scotland it risks upsetting the rest of its population. Scotland would have to have border controls and with that trade tariffs with the UK and possibly their own currency. Let them go I say.

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WhitestElephant
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by WhitestElephant »

[Self deleted]
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Pseudo
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Pseudo »

While Westminster has the legal right to block a request supported by the Scottish parliament for a referendum, for all practical purposes doing so would be the surest way to guarantee that Scottish independence would have the overwhelming support of the Scottish electorate.

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Maybe Irish nationalists ought to be reminded that Britain and British owned banks bailed out Ireland the total sum of £14bn during the Eurozone crisis even though the UK isn't in the Eurozone. You're welcome. ;)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... l-out.html

marktigger
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by marktigger »

Ireland has paid those loans back by the sounds of things and the Irish Know what austerity means. They will benefit from Brexit. But if the Euro goes bad we will dig them out again.

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Galloglass
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

There is a certain "confusion" about "Bailouts"......Ireland had a property bubble (similar to the one in London now) ...It burst and tax revenues fell with it leaving a Deficit in the national yearly budget which was compensated for in two budgets without actually needing any bailout to do it.

But the European Banks (were /still are) essentially bankrupt both in the Eurozone and Britain.......When Ireland was thinking of letting some of the "stupidest" banks fail over the property bubble the EU threatened the government saying NO EUROZONE bank must fail. (Same with Greece etc)......The reason being these "Irish" banks had borrowed the money they lent from German/ French/ British banks etc and THEY would fail too.....Ireland was forced to throw it's National Reserve Fund (€60 Billion) into these (failed) banks and was then forced to "borrow" more billions to throw into them (from German/French etc banks)....NOT to save Ireland but to save European Banks and the Euro....This money is being repaid by Irish taxpayers with interest. Ireland has paid 42% of the total cost of "Bailing Out" European Banks and the EURO....Ireland has NOT been bailed out....quite the reverse in fact. Fortunately (unlike Greece) Ireland appears to be able to afford it though as Mark mentions above not without discomfort (particularly for the least well -off)

Though Brexit may have negative effects in Britain, I feel that it has rattled the cages of the "Ever closer Union" corporate staters in Brussels and some good will come from it. For that I thank all of you here who voted to Leave.

marktigger
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by marktigger »

I hope so to and the European Superstate idea is dead in water. I do hope the Irish will continue to buy from Appledore

marktigger
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by marktigger »

Should the government look at alternated to much of the defence planning for scotland. Not just trident. but maybe reassigning P8 infrastructure or seeing if BAE could build in portsmouth not govan. If the scottish Nats are going to keep playing referendum roulette.

FuNsTeR
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by FuNsTeR »

marktigger wrote:Should the government look at alternated to much of the defence planning for scotland. Not just trident. but maybe reassigning P8 infrastructure or seeing if BAE could build in portsmouth not govan. If the scottish Nats are going to keep playing referendum roulette.
**cough** **cough** been saying that since the EU campaign started

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