Scotland (Political Thread)

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Scottish Independence?

Political Independence (Retain Monarchy)
6
7%
Full Independence (No Monarchy or Commonwealth)
13
16%
Stay In The United Kingdom
61
75%
Emigrate To Ireland
1
1%
 
Total votes: 81

R686
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by R686 »

T-Force wrote:well the fun begins it's off to the courts we go :clap:

Has Sturgeon taken a leaf out of Gina Millers hand book?

I haven’t heard she has made that move yet

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Image
:clap: :lol: :mrgreen:

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Cooper
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Cooper »

I love the smell of Scottish Separtist baiting in the afternoon.

Absolutely right, no point whatsoever in appeasing that mob, when they will only ever accept one result.

Sturgeon has a history of trying to ignore referendum results she doesn't agree with, first 2014 then 2016.

Fuck her, toxic little cunt.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The Spectator puts it rather bluntly:
why Sturgeon wants to keep talking about the Westminster government turning down her requests for another referendum is that it means she doesn't have to spend quite so much time talking about her troubled domestic record.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

R686
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by R686 »

I see Sturgeon is starting to talk about going to the courts to force a referendum, what are people thought and under what legislation would she be actually challenging


But I find it ironic she is using being in the EU to be sovereign, but if Scotland re-enters the EU they are also would have to give up sovereignty. European law override national law,

Also I note from an older source of Scottish trade 65% of all goods manufactured in Scotland goes to the rest of the UK only 19% actually goes to the EU. How does putting a trade barrier between Scotland and the rest of the UK help what ever trade after Brexit will most likely see some form of tariffs and quotas put in place between the UK and EU. After Scotland declares independence and re-enters the EU guess what now a greater portion of Scottish trade will have some form of tariff and quotas put in place, taking a soccer analogy but it seems like an own goal to me.

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

The EU has reported the SNP to Brussels police for its Brexit Eve night stunt in which the SNP shone a large "Europe loves Scotland" projection slogan over the European Commission building.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/worl ... 27481.html



Nicola Sturgeon falsely claimed that the EU projected the slogan, when in was in fact done by the SNP without permission.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Well, this whole Scotland thing (with all the stunts, like go-Catalonia in referendum arrangements) will soon take a backseat. It gives me no pleasure to report what Bertie Ahern said (but he knows the stuff way better than :) I do):
"Sinn Fein's position... within 5 yrs; But it will be inevitable over this decade [which is already running... though not by much]"

So thank you very much, Boris, for getting onto the wagon called Brexit and at least one of the horses pulling it, taking you to the election victory, was called ' English Nationalism' - harnessed to pull that single mission through. That single mission (not accomplished; don't try to do a declaration on a carrier at least - that would be not just bad form, but also a bad precedent) is only taking its baby steps. But this baby grows fast: the toddler will take a bad stumble in a year's time
- markets/ biz will see that coming, so don't book any summer holidays yet. They will be very cheap as folks will start to realise how much poorer they will be (so the pre-bookings cancelled will make for ripe pickings :) )
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by dmereifield »

Blimey, 55% of the Welsh, 45% of the Northern Irish and 38% of the Scot's are English nationalists

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Correlation and causation :roll:

For a slightly more thoughtful treatment of the "at least one of the horses pulling the Brexit wagon" there seems, first of all, to be some agreement that English nationalism indeed contributed to Brexit, ... and poses the issue of English reaction to devolution. More particularly: Did asymmetrical devolution in the United Kingdom engage the English nation in ways that might help to explain the contribution of English nationalism to the Brexit vote?

I wonder what you would say about what is being posited in this piece: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/brexit/2019/10/ ... tionalism/
- it has been sent in from Canada... everybody's favourite place these days. But perhaps the distance affords a "cooler head" for the analysis of trends?

Let me just state, on my part, that the relationship between domestic devolution and international/regional integration in the form of the EU occupies hugely more mindspace now, compared to a few years back
- and the dynamic that has been set in motion may not be to everybody's liking
- especially if one happens to be a Unionist (without necessarily being in either of the two parties that have incorporated the idea in their name)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

SNP loses 'Scottish Visa' scheme vote 322 to 46
Today, MPs were taking part in a SNP debate on introducing a Scottish visa scheme. This relates to devolving powers to the Scottish Government for a tailored migration policy in Scotland.

The Scottish government has long campaigned for immigration powers to be held at Holyrood, with the SNP's manifesto for December's general election calling for a "tailored migration system" to respond to local demographic needs.

Tonight MPs voted against the Opposition Day debate motion on Migration and Scotland, with 322 votes to 46.

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SKB
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

A law of 1322: "All beached whales and sturgeons must be offered to the monarch."

Err...
Image
Anyone got a net?! :mrgreen:

Defiance
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Defiance »

Bit childish isn't it?

andrew98
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by andrew98 »

Defiance wrote:Bit childish isn't it?
So is the SNP's behaviour. :twisted:

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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Defiance »

Yes it is. So naturally the best response is ....to do the same back?

I think it's just a bit pathetic especially if you claim to support the union. I don't care for the SNP but it's crap like this that fuels their supporters.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The First Minister has already shot herself (the campaign about to start?) in the foot:
"Furious Nicola Sturgeon has hit out
[...]
She says that the agreement struck by Mr Johnson with Brussels could cost the country £9 billion by 2030."

Compare that with the total block grant after adjustment for devolved taxes intake and devolved welfare expenditure, for the last four years:
17,801.4
18,853.8
21,298.7
29,909.4... call that £30 bn, between friends.

Where's the case for 'going one's own way'?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The Miller case which I brought up in the IMB/ Devolution context (IMB, by now, no longer being an affront to the WA) will be revisited soon as the SC confirmed not only sovereignty of the Parliament, but its supremacy... for good measure :silent:

Here we go:
Joanna Cherry QC
@joannaccherry
·
Dec 27
It’s the unanimous decision of @theSNP
MPs to vote against Johnson’s #BrexitDeal. Scotland’s Govt & representatives were cut out of the negotiations that led to it. Our country’s interests are not served by it. We won’t own it. Our focus is #independence
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Further on devolution (the Gvmnt is mobilising to defend the Union? says Raab), is the Starmer/Brown commission more than an electoral manoeuvre, to try and stave off a majority in Scotland that would lead to (even more intensive) bickering over Indyref2; to have or not to?

If Starmer, now reasserting Labour’s blanket opposition to a second referendum, is successful in the above 'staving off' operation, we might still get (as a result from 'the' commission) Federal Britain as Labour's official policy
... and repeat manoeuvres of buying a Westminster majority like Mrs. May did after the 2017 elections. Some time in the far off future that is - as Brexit will be such a roaring success :?: that the architects of it will cement their power for a decade

Funny that; if we are escaping a federal construct - as we speak/ write - where we felt that we were not a true and equal partner with a 15% share in the total, what tricks will be needed in order for a country of 56 million people to accept true parity of status with a country that on the same stats stands for only 10% of that? For convenience of argument I am leaving Wales & NI out (from the comparison; not from any devolution).

There are (as things stand) very few departments that are 100% bastions of Westminster, as defined by the percentage of departmental spending responsibility devolved to Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland being a flat zero:
The Treasury, Cabinet Office, Defence, Int'l Trade and the monstrously-long named FCDO

I guess, to take the topic further (and not just restrict it to Scotland) one would need to look at, not federal states such as the USA, Australia, Germany, Switzerland etc, but formal(ly) unions which are verging on a federal structure: e.g. Canada... and the 'dreaded' :) Belgium
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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whitelancer
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by whitelancer »

For Labour its a case of be careful what you wish for.
Wasn't the idea of devolution to put the SNP back in their box and cement Labours position in Scotland. Well that worked well!
Nothing will appease the SNP short of independence, so It comes down to convincing the people to remain in the union, which is going to be no easy task.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

whitelancer wrote:Wasn't the idea of devolution to put the SNP back in their box and cement Labours position in Scotland. Well that worked well!
Nothing will appease the SNP short of independence
Except that more people (in Scotland) will start to see their inaptitude (outside the propaganda dept, which seems to be working well).

That sort of rah-rah approach where ideology is not supported by an economic rationale (so that people can trust that it is not only for their good, but also for the good of their children) normally starts to fade away - failing a breakthrough early on, when tests with reality are not showing through (yet). With that proviso I don't need to say that there was an exception, somewhere nearby - and quite recently :D .

Had to look at the first page of this thread, how and for what it was started, and there was a good comment there, to take us to the present (it is the part in italics).
Last time round it was all about indy-Scotland and rUK, both in the EU so no problems.[ As] that's categorically no longer on offer (Scotland is up North, but not quite a Greenland), so revisit DevoMax? Or look for some other form of limited independence, from historical precedents?

As we claim to have achieved Canada+ with the EU, why go further than Canada. Theirs (a plan hatched, but turned down in popular scrutiny - which does not mean that it would have been wanting in some particular aspect) was known as sovereignty-association: an arrangement in which Quebec would have kept the economic advantages of federation with Canada (e.g., a common currency, central bank, and free-trade zone) but also have the cultural and social benefits of political independence.

And 'no'. Scotland cannot become another NI (ticks boxes...), even though those folks are still complaining 'in principle'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Pseudo »

whitelancer wrote:For Labour its a case of be careful what you wish for.
Wasn't the idea of devolution to put the SNP back in their box and cement Labours position in Scotland. Well that worked well!
Nothing will appease the SNP short of independence, so It comes down to convincing the people to remain in the union, which is going to be no easy task.
What box do you think that they were out of? Marginally fewer Scots voted for them in 1997 than in 1992 and the two seats that they gained from another party came at the expense of the Tories. The reality is that the commitment to Scottish devolution in the 1997 manifesto was practically the same commitment made in the 1992 and 1987 manifestos and it would be difficult to make the case that the commitment given in the 1987 manifesto was to put the SNP back in the box given that they lost about a third of their vote between the 1979 and 1983 elections. Though admittedly, that drop between 1979 and 1983 was likely due to their connivance in putting Thatcher in to power.

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whitelancer
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by whitelancer »

I take your point.
I should perhaps have said it was designed to keep them in their box. Unfortunately it had the effect of opening the box, which the SNP have taken full advantage of. As closing the box is impossible, I can only see independence as all but inevitable.

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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by dmereifield »

whitelancer wrote:I take your point.
I should perhaps have said it was designed to keep them in their box. Unfortunately it had the effect of opening the box, which the SNP have taken full advantage of. As closing the box is impossible, I can only see independence as all but inevitable.
It's not inevitable, but it is a high probability. It really does depend on the actions of HMG in the coming years. If Boris and Gove are going to turn their attention to this issue (strengthening the union and simultarnously making rejoining the EU as costly and unappealing as possible), as has been reported, then I'll be a happy chapppy

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whitelancer
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by whitelancer »

The problem is how to go about strengthening the union.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Yeah, telling that to people that you first disrespect/ ignore/ try to bully AKA IMB
... and now want to work with. May take some time and effort

Of course, hoping for the best
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

dmereifield
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Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by dmereifield »

whitelancer wrote:The problem is how to go about strengthening the union.
Very good question, and not one that I have a decent answer for

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