Scotland (Political Thread)

For discussions on politics and current events.
Post Reply

Scottish Independence?

Political Independence (Retain Monarchy)
6
8%
Full Independence (No Monarchy or Commonwealth)
13
16%
Stay In The United Kingdom
59
75%
Emigrate To Ireland
1
1%
 
Total votes: 79

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7655
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Has liked: 80 times
Been liked: 218 times
England

Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

The results of the 2014 Scottish Referendum.

Image

Yes: 1,617,989 44.7%
No: 2,001,926 55.3%
Valid votes: 3,619,915 (99.91%)
Invalid or blank votes: 3,429 (0.09%)
Total votes: 3,623,344
Voter turnout: 84.59%
Electorate: 4,283,392

The areas favouring independence ("Yes") were: Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dumbartonshire. Coincidently, these areas all have a large population of 'Scots' with Irish roots.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7655
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Has liked: 80 times
Been liked: 218 times
England

Re: Scotland - Independence?

Post by SKB »

I've added an opinion poll to this Scottish Independence thread.

The choices are:

(1) Political Independence - You become a politically independent country outside of the United Kingdom, but retain HM Queen Elizabeth II (& Heirs/Successors) as your Head of State. You basically become 'Greater Isle Of Man' ;)

(2) Full Independence - You politically and constitutionally become a Republic without a Monarchy. You also lose membership of the Commonwealth. You basically become an American. :twisted:

(3) Stay In The UK - Keep the same system you currently enjoy.

User avatar
Tiny Toy
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 06 May 2015, 09:54
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Scotland - Independence?

Post by Tiny Toy »

For (1) rather than "Greater Isle of Man", a better correlate would be New Zealand (similar population as well).

There's also no a priori reason that Scotland could not reinstate its own monarchy and become a correlate of one of the Scandinavian countries.

User avatar
ArmChairCivvy
Senior Member
Posts: 16310
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:34
Has liked: 77 times
Been liked: 73 times
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland - Independence?

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

What would that correlate relationship entail?

The prospective membership in the Nordic Community was banged on for many years, and finally the Nordic Council had to rule that there would not be enough ties to show for a membership... a select club, you know.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7655
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Has liked: 80 times
Been liked: 218 times
England

Re: Scotland - Independence?

Post by SKB »

Having red hair wasn't enough for the entrance test? ;)

User avatar
Tiny Toy
Member
Posts: 271
Joined: 06 May 2015, 09:54
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0

Re: Scotland - Independence?

Post by Tiny Toy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:What would that correlate relationship entail?
It would entail that the rUK treats both in the same way, not that they would have some alliance between each other.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7655
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Has liked: 80 times
Been liked: 218 times
England

Re: Scotland

Post by SKB »

Nicola Sturgeon unveils official figures showing Scotland's deficit was 9.7 per cent of GDP in 2014/15 compared to 4.9 per cent for the UK as a whole.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politic ... f-UKs.html

hopper
Member
Posts: 37
Joined: 28 Nov 2015, 21:29
Has liked: 16 times
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland

Post by hopper »

No doubt the fault of the Tories / Westminster / English . Delete as appropriate :)

Little J
Member
Posts: 767
Joined: 02 May 2015, 14:35
Has liked: 50 times
Been liked: 34 times
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland

Post by Little J »

hopper wrote:No doubt the fault of the Tories / Westminster / English . Delete as appropriate :)
Why delete? She would agree with all three at the same time (on any subject) :D

User avatar
The Armchair Soldier
Site Admin
Posts: 1720
Joined: 29 Apr 2015, 08:31
Has liked: 13 times
Been liked: 18 times
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

SNP Spring Conference: Party to Build New Case for Independence
The SNP will undertake a fresh drive for Scottish independence but not "browbeat" voters into backing change, party leader Nicola Sturgeon has said.

In September 2014, the electorate north of the border voted 55% to 45% to stay part of the United Kingdom.

The politician admitted that many had not "found our arguments compelling enough" to choose to leave.

The new strategy will begin in the summer, after May's Holyrood election and June's EU referendum.
Read More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-35788489

So much for "once in a generation", eh?

JayDee
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 20:39
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland

Post by JayDee »

Are they going to try every other year until it happens?

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
Tuvalu

Re: Scotland

Post by Pseudo »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:SNP Spring Conference: Party to Build New Case for Independence
The SNP will undertake a fresh drive for Scottish independence but not "browbeat" voters into backing change, party leader Nicola Sturgeon has said.

In September 2014, the electorate north of the border voted 55% to 45% to stay part of the United Kingdom.

The politician admitted that many had not "found our arguments compelling enough" to choose to leave.

The new strategy will begin in the summer, after May's Holyrood election and June's EU referendum.
Read More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-35788489

So much for "once in a generation", eh?
It's a sop to appease the hardcore secessionist base of their support. The referendum was largely lost on economics and the recent GERS figures and the current oil price would make it even more difficult for them to win a referendum in the next few years. Anyway, the SNP may be liars and hypocrites, but they know that they wouldn't last long if they had to stand by their own record rather than shifting blame for their failures to the evil English/Westminster/Tories. And of course, the Scots aren't idiots, they know they're on a cushy number where they get to enjoy the economic safety net of being part of the union while electing a political leadership dedicated to using the threat of secession to get a better funding deal at the expense of the rest of the UK.

User avatar
Cooper
Member
Posts: 347
Joined: 01 May 2015, 08:11
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 31 times
Korea North

Re: Scotland

Post by Cooper »

Pseudo wrote: It's a sop to appease the hardcore secessionist base of their support. .
..you can't keep stringing them along forever though, how many times can she stand in front of them at the annual cult gathering and promise to get another referendum?, at some point, crunch time will come, and she will have to follow through on her promise of another referendum.

I'd say she's got until the next elections in 2020 to build the case for it and assuming they win a majority, as seems likely, it will have to be within 18mths of that or there will be trouble.

User avatar
Pseudo
Senior Member
Posts: 1732
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Has liked: 1 time
Been liked: 0
Tuvalu

Re: Scotland

Post by Pseudo »

Cooper wrote:
Pseudo wrote: It's a sop to appease the hardcore secessionist base of their support. .
..you can't keep stringing them along forever though, how many times can she stand in front of them at the annual cult gathering and promise to get another referendum?, at some point, crunch time will come, and she will have to follow through on her promise of another referendum.

I think that those supporters who aren't part of the secessionist base will likely get sick of the economic mismanagement and general incompetence long before independence sometime never becomes a big problem for the secessionist base. I think that as the SNP takes on more financial powers their message of blaming Westminster/Tories/English for their failures will ring increasingly hollow with a lot of the SNP's less strident supporters.
I'd say she's got until the next elections in 2020 to build the case for it and assuming they win a majority, as seems likely, it will have to be within 18mths of that or there will be trouble.
As far as independence goes I don't think that she's got that little time, but I equally don't think that she's got as much time as Parti Québécois had either. To my mind the only things that'll put the nationalists back in their box is either a failed second referendum or a non-Conservative government. Sadly, the SNP leadership know that and are putting a lot of effort in to ensuring neither of those things happen.

IrishT
Member
Posts: 60
Joined: 07 May 2015, 11:01
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Bahamas

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by IrishT »

SKB wrote:The areas favouring independence ("Yes") were: Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dumbartonshire. Coincidently, these areas all have a large population of 'Scots' from Irish migrant origins.
We'll get one of these days, buddy.

User avatar
Galloglass
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: 01 Apr 2016, 13:29
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Ireland

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

SKB...."The areas favouring independence ("Yes") were: Dundee, Glasgow, North Lanarkshire and West Dumbartonshire. Coincidently, these areas all have a large population of 'Scots' from Irish migrant origins."

Had a read of this thread (watched the Scottish election results) Seems the implication is that "Irish imigration" swung some votes to yes. I find this a peculiar tack to take as the Scots and Irish are essentially the same people (all are Gaels) with the same native language and a history going back thousands of years of intermarriage and movement from one place to the other.
Scotland got it's name from the Romans as "Scotti" was the Roman name for "Irish" people. It all seems a rather "unremarkable" element in Scottish politics and a perfectly natural thing. Have to admit I have many Scottish relatives myself.

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7655
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Has liked: 80 times
Been liked: 218 times
England

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by SKB »

Scotland to increase armed police numbers
Image

Scotland is to increase its number of armed police officers by about a third following warnings that the country would not be able to cope with a major terror attack. Police Scotland said it would recruit an additional 90 officers who will be attached to Armed Response Vehicles, bringing the total number 365. It will also recruit 34 more trainers and specialist firearms officers.

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-36547739

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Brexit: Nicola Sturgeon says a second Scottish independence vote highly likely

Scotland's first minister has said a second independence referendum is "highly likely" after the UK voted to leave the EU. Nicola Sturgeon said it was "democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will. She said the Scottish government would begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote.

More: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-s ... s-36621030

--

As I said in the EU thread, it's exactly what I predicted, and it's exactly what's happening. It's almost like I was telling the truth or something. :roll:

User avatar
Galloglass
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: 01 Apr 2016, 13:29
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Ireland

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

As Cameron has already said the leadership of Scotland NI and Wales MUST be intimately involved in the "negotiations" for Brexit.
I predict that those "negotiations" will lead to another Indyref . The EU will welcome Scotland with open arms. "Independence Day?"

Careful what you wish for.

JayDee
Member
Posts: 96
Joined: 26 Nov 2015, 20:39
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by JayDee »

I can't see how scotland would survive if it voted for independence today what does scotland exactly have to offer? oil is not $100 a barrel today. Let's not forget yes 1.6 million voted for remain but 1 million also voted to leave.

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by RetroSicotte »

You would be right if the Indy movement was fuelled by that kind of logical economic thinking.

Unfortunately, it's not.

User avatar
Engaging Strategy
Member
Posts: 775
Joined: 20 Dec 2015, 13:45
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Contact:
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Engaging Strategy »

RetroSicotte wrote:You would be right if the Indy movement was fuelled by that kind of logical economic thinking.

Unfortunately, it's not.
Could indy Scotland even meet the accession requirements? EU probably less willing to bend those rules after the whole Greece saga. Also the prospect of a border between an EU Scotland and an outside rUK pretty much smashes the SNP's continuity argument. Last time round it was all about indy Scotland and rUK both in the EU so no problems. That's categorically no longer on offer. Might make the SNP less likely to go through with indyref 2, instead using it as a means of forcing the UK gov't to back Scottish interests in the negotiations.

Also what happens if we go the "Norway" EEA route with continued single market access? Would that cool tempers north of the border?
Blog: http://engagingstrategy.blogspot.co.uk
Twitter: @EngageStrategy1

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by RetroSicotte »

Engaging Strategy wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:You would be right if the Indy movement was fuelled by that kind of logical economic thinking.

Unfortunately, it's not.
Could indy Scotland even meet the accession requirements? EU probably less willing to bend those rules after the whole Greece saga. Also the prospect of a border between an EU Scotland and an outside rUK pretty much smashes the SNP's continuity argument. Last time round it was all about indy Scotland and rUK both in the EU so no problems. That's categorically no longer on offer. Might make the SNP less likely to go through with indyref 2, instead using it as a means of forcing the UK gov't to back Scottish interests in the negotiations.

Also what happens if we go the "Norway" EEA route with continued single market access? Would that cool tempers north of the border?
Again, you're assuming Scottish independance is about logic and facts.

It's not. It NEVER was.

It's about nationalism and grabbing power for the SNP, literally nothing else, because there is nothing to gain. They'll say "Go Indy and we'll be back in the EU!" just like they did last time. The EU President even said "That's basically impossible" and it didn't matter a damn jot, they still got 45% and a majority parliment out of people saying WE'LL STILL BE IN THE EU.

Facts.

Don't.

Matter.

To.

Nats.

I'll never stop repeating that until everyone finally realises it.

User avatar
Galloglass
Member
Posts: 108
Joined: 01 Apr 2016, 13:29
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
Ireland

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by Galloglass »

It depends on which facts you choose to consider.......Here's just one: "Vote NO to independence to stay in the EU"

I'm not really surprised at the result......Scotland will have Indyref 2 within 18 months ......She will bring NI with her.
We may even have "Ever closer Union" between Ireland and Scotland......who knows?

RetroSicotte
Retired Site Admin
Posts: 2657
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Has liked: 0
Been liked: 0
United Kingdom

Re: Scotland (Political Thread)

Post by RetroSicotte »

"Vote NO to independence to stay in the EU"

Which was true. If Scotland had left they would have left the EU and had basically little to no chance of rejoining given that was during the Greece madness and the EU wanted none of it.

"We may even have "Ever closer Union" between Ireland and Scotland......who knows?"

Not exactly an idea that fills me with pleasure, in what way does that make up for everything Scotland would lose in becoming a near failed state?

Post Reply