105mm L118 Light gun

Contains threads on British Army equipment of the past, present and future.
User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

For me I would like to see the 105mm remain back up by a ground launched Brimstone allowing a Light Artillery support group to be made up of

1 x Battery of 3 guns with 3 x Bushmaster dual cabs for gun limbers 3 x Bushmaster utility for supply and 1 Bushmaster C&C

1 x Battery of 3 Brimstone GL's with 3 x Bushmaster 18 round launchers 3 x Bushmaster utility for supply and 1 Bushmaster C&C

1 x UAV Battery

I would be happy with a move to a SP 120mm mortars system in the Motorized infantry and also on the RM Vikings

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:13 For me I would like to see the 105mm remain back up by a ground launched Brimstone allowing a Light Artillery support group to be made up of
I think a light Anti-armour/overwatch launch platform has to become part of the relevant brigade force for sure.

Ideally a system that is shared across a medium/heavy capability like the BOXER platform. And agree it should operate in addition to the light guns.

I don't agree that a mortar heavy mortar would be something the artillery want or need. It would be an mech infantry capability.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

RunningStrong wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:24
Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:13 For me I would like to see the 105mm remain back up by a ground launched Brimstone allowing a Light Artillery support group to be made up of
I think a light Anti-armour/overwatch launch platform has to become part of the relevant brigade force for sure.

Ideally a system that is shared across a medium/heavy capability like the BOXER platform. And agree it should operate in addition to the light guns.

I don't agree that a mortar heavy mortar would be something the artillery want or need. It would be an mech infantry capability.


That was what I was saying I would happy for the Heavy and Light Mech infantry battalions to have self propelled 120mm mortar systems based on Boxer , Bushmaster & Viking
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post:
RunningStrong

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by RunningStrong »

Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 12:08 That was what I was saying I would happy for the Heavy and Light Mech infantry battalions to have self propelled 120mm mortar systems based on Boxer , Bushmaster & Viking
Apologies, I misread and crossed wires with the earlier discussion on 120mm mortar replacing L118.

I agree with you.

sol
Member
Posts: 527
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by sol »

Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:13 1 x Battery of 3 guns with 3 x Bushmaster dual cabs for gun limbers 3 x Bushmaster utility for supply and 1 Bushmaster C&C
3 gun battery is too small, especially if you want to have only one gun battery per regiment. Also Bushmaster is too heavy to be lifted by Chinook. It would require lighter vehicle for 16th AABCT and 3rd CommB.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

sol wrote: 06 May 2022, 15:27
Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:13 1 x Battery of 3 guns with 3 x Bushmaster dual cabs for gun limbers 3 x Bushmaster utility for supply and 1 Bushmaster C&C
3 gun battery is too small, especially if you want to have only one gun battery per regiment. Also Bushmaster is too heavy to be lifted by Chinook. It would require lighter vehicle for 16th AABCT and 3rd CommB.
What I have put above would be the Artillery support group for a Light Mech / Motorized Battalion battle group made up of

1 x Cavalry Company = Jackal
1 x Infantry Battalion = Foxhound & Bushmaster
1 x Artillery support group = as above
1 x Logistics support group = RLC , RE , REME , RMC , RSC

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by RunningStrong »

sol wrote: 06 May 2022, 15:27
Tempest414 wrote: 06 May 2022, 11:13 1 x Battery of 3 guns with 3 x Bushmaster dual cabs for gun limbers 3 x Bushmaster utility for supply and 1 Bushmaster C&C
3 gun battery is too small, especially if you want to have only one gun battery per regiment. Also Bushmaster is too heavy to be lifted by Chinook. It would require lighter vehicle for 16th AABCT and 3rd CommB.
I'm pretty sure 16AABCT would be using MRVP Pt 1 vehicles (JLTV) with limited armour, so probably as Artillery tractor vehicles and with vehicle-pedestal or RWS missile systems.

https://warriormaven.com/.amp/land/join ... hicle-jltv

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Lord Jim »

If we all agree that the Light Gun has a role supporting the UK's high readiness very light formations then I believe we need to relook at how the Royal Artillery organises is Regiments to support these formations. To start with both only 16AA BCT should have a full Regiment assigned to them, comprising three Batteries of eight Light Guns with light weight tractors and limbers/ammunition carriers. This, I believe should be compliments by a Second Regiment made up of a Battery of Precision Strike Missiles such as Brimstone, a Battery equipped with UAS and finally a Battery equipped with towed Counter Battery/Mortar Locating Radar. Where possible this equipment should be able to be carried inside a Chinook, but larger items will obviously have to be able to be carried underslung both this and the possibly the planned new medium Helicopter.

This are far more complicated for teh Royal Marines and their FCF. Their new way of operating and the size of unit in which they will conduct operations makes it more difficult to allocate conventions fire support. They are more likely to rely on man portable Mortars and both rotary and fixed wing air Support. For their larger operations, and hear we will probably be talking about nothing larger then a reinforced Company a larger weapon that is self propelled, and able to be carried underslung beneath a Chinook or Merlin may be needed. For me this would mean a precision missile system, most likely mounted on a Viking Mk2. I do find the use of the Light Gun by the FCF a difficult issue to resolve.

For larger formations operating in areas previously seen as the domain of the Royal Marines, for conventions fighting I see the need for one of the Army's planned Light BCTs to be tailored to operations in this area. Being a light BCT does not mean its artillery support needs to be so. Ideally if the Army chooses a wheeled 155mm Gun and opts to buy a number of HIMARS to compliment them, I would say such a Light BCT should be given a Artillery Regiment with three eight gun 155mm Batteries and a Battery of Eight HIMARS. Like 166 BCT there would also be a Artillery Regiment operating Support weapons, such as Counter Battery Radar, UAS, and in this case SPAA. The individual Infantry Battalions would have integral fire support in the form of 120mm Mortars and a long range / Overwatch Precision Missile platform. All of the above could be mounted on the Viking Mk2 Platform which should be the main platform for said Battalions.

Looking at the above suggestions, the number of new items not already in the MoD's equipment plan are not that great. The purchase of this extra kit will have a major impact on the fore support these formations will have, and one thing that has been obvious form Ukraine is that Artillery and the support it provides is far more important that it has seen to be over the past few decades, and the situation need to be sorted out as a matter of the highest priority.

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by RunningStrong »

Lord Jim wrote: 07 May 2022, 01:09 For larger formations operating in areas previously seen as the domain of the Royal Marines, for conventions fighting I see the need for one of the Army's planned Light BCTs to be tailored to operations in this area. Being a light BCT does not mean its artillery support needs to be so. Ideally if the Army chooses a wheeled 155mm Gun and opts to buy a number of HIMARS to compliment them, I would say such a Light BCT should be given a Artillery Regiment with three eight gun 155mm Batteries and a Battery of Eight HIMARS.
There's nothing light about the wheeled 155 options. The Boxer is a huge vehicle (circa 35t), the MAN 10x10 is massive (dimensionally). Which means your engineering and support equipment grows massively in size too.

Any light force would be using towed Artillery piece or a new 105 SPG.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

Maybe it would be better to call them Heavy , Medium and Light force something like

Heavy = 3rd Division

1 x Deep fire BCT = Ajax , M270 , AS-90
2 x Heavy Infantry BCT = CH2 , Ajax , Boxer , M270 , AS-90

Medium = 1st Division

8 x Motorized Infantry BBG = Jackal , Foxhound , Bushmaster , 105 gun , GL Brimstone , M142 HIMARS

Light

16 AA and FCF = Light vehicles , 105 gun , Exactor

For me the Heavy formations should deploy as full BCT's with the Medium deploying as Battalion Battle Groups ( BBG's ) and the Light as BBG's or Company Response Groups ( CRG's)

sol
Member
Posts: 527
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by sol »

RunningStrong wrote: 07 May 2022, 08:40 There's nothing light about the wheeled 155 options. The Boxer is a huge vehicle (circa 35t), the MAN 10x10 is massive (dimensionally).
MAN XS3 with 155mm is massive in weight too. With 45 tons it is almost as heavy as K9 (~47 tons). Archer is "just" 30 tons, but not sure about weight of version on MAN, it could be heavier than that.
Tempest414 wrote: 07 May 2022, 13:29 1 x Deep fire BCT = Ajax , M270 , AS-90
2 x Heavy Infantry BCT = CH2 , Ajax , Boxer , M270 , AS-90
Is this your suggested organization? With just two AS-90, or whatever 155mm system will replace it, either armoured brigades or deep fire brigade will have them. By "Future Soldier" Army structure, both regiments should be under deep recce, which leave both armoured brigades without organic artillery.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

sol wrote: 07 May 2022, 14:56
RunningStrong wrote: 07 May 2022, 08:40 There's nothing light about the wheeled 155 options. The Boxer is a huge vehicle (circa 35t), the MAN 10x10 is massive (dimensionally).
MAN XS3 with 155mm is massive in weight too. With 45 tons it is almost as heavy as K9 (~47 tons). Archer is "just" 30 tons, but not sure about weight of version on MAN, it could be heavier than that.
Tempest414 wrote: 07 May 2022, 13:29 1 x Deep fire BCT = Ajax , M270 , AS-90
2 x Heavy Infantry BCT = CH2 , Ajax , Boxer , M270 , AS-90
Is this your suggested organization? With just two AS-90, or whatever 155mm system will replace it, either armoured brigades or deep fire brigade will have them. By "Future Soldier" Army structure, both regiments should be under deep recce, which leave both armoured brigades without organic artillery.


This in its self is a failure of planning as both the Armoured brigades will need organic artillery the only way it can work is if the when deploying a Armoured BCT it get organic artillery and the Deep fires BCT is only a thing when deploying as a Division

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Lord Jim »

You would be delivering any 155mm platforms by land or sea, and the weight of the say Archer is more than moade up for in its fore power range and flexible ammunition types. The area a Archer could deliver indirect fire support over is far, far greater than that that could be provided by the Light Gun. The Light BCTs need to be able to operate with the Heavy BCTs in a high intensity conflict as well as fighting bush wars. The Army is not going to restrict between a quarter and half of its war fighting capability to out of theatre bush wars.

I agree the 105mm L:ght Gun has a role supporting 16AA BCT as this formation would expect heavier follow up units to provide greater fire support after a short period of time, unless engaged in a low intensity COIN/Bush War.

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by SD67 »

Tempest414 wrote: 07 May 2022, 13:29 Maybe it would be better to call them Heavy , Medium and Light force something like

Heavy = 3rd Division

1 x Deep fire BCT = Ajax , M270 , AS-90
2 x Heavy Infantry BCT = CH2 , Ajax , Boxer , M270 , AS-90

Medium = 1st Division

8 x Motorized Infantry BBG = Jackal , Foxhound , Bushmaster , 105 gun , GL Brimstone , M142 HIMARS

Light

16 AA and FCF = Light vehicles , 105 gun , Exactor

For me the Heavy formations should deploy as full BCT's with the Medium deploying as Battalion Battle Groups ( BBG's ) and the Light as BBG's or Company Response Groups ( CRG's)
A bit OT but
Given the impact of recent events, eg increasing numbers forward deployed in the Baltics / CEE might it be time to follow the German approach and integrate say an Estonian or Lithuanian BTG into that structure? Could plug a few gaps, and be a strong political statement
These users liked the author SD67 for the post:
jedibeeftrix

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Lord Jim »

Lithuania would be good choice as they also operate Boxer in its IFV form. They have4 a full Battalion so equipped so this would be a nice addition to a Heavy BCT, bringing the Infantry up to three Battalion. It could form the core of a joint Battalion level Battlegroup, with the UK allocating Challenger 3s and Ajax. Maybe equipment for such a Battlegroup could be stored in Lithuania for jus such a mission allowing two Heavy Battalion based Battlegroups to be rapidly formed. We could integrate further and mix things up at Battalion level exchanging Companies which would add Boxer IFVs to the UK Boxer APC units and visa-versa. Together we could probably improve the specialist support the front line units received with boosted EW and Cyber to start.

However there would be no place for the light Gun in this structure. Lithuania used 120mm Mortars and 144mm Guns, so we should also bring 144mm Guns as well as a contingent of HIMARS or M270.

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Tempest414 »

I think it is time to move over to the Future army Thread you on the other side

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Lord Jim »

But the future is the Light Gun isn't it? Sorry will transfer to the Future Army thread. :D

leonard
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 21 May 2016, 17:52
Italy

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by leonard »

In the meantime ather have made up their mind and have chosen one of the best option that the market has. The Belgian Army have ordered like the French did nine of the new CAESAR NG MK2 in 6X6 configuration

RunningStrong
Senior Member
Posts: 1304
Joined: 06 May 2015, 20:52

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by RunningStrong »

leonard wrote: 15 May 2022, 16:17 In the meantime ather have made up their mind and have chosen one of the best option that the market has. The Belgian Army have ordered like the French did nine of the new CAESAR NG MK2 in 6X6 configuration
What's so good about a manually loaded 155mm L55 with 18 roads and very limited protection?
These users liked the author RunningStrong for the post:
leonard

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Lord Jim »

Unprotected artillery may still have a place in COIN and other low intensity conflicts but where counter battery fore is a threat, both protection and the time it takes to stop, conduct a fire mission and be gone are high priorities. Yes we have seen may videos of unprotected Ukrainian Artillery firing, but obviously we are not going to see the level of counter battery fire the Russian are able to conduct unless the latter release videos of such actions. During the conflict in 2014 in the Donbass region, the Ukrainians did lose a number of towed artillery units to counter battery fire. I believe there are going to be many lessons that will come out of the current war in Ukraine with regards to the use of artillery, what types are most effective and how nest to counter an opponent's artillery assets. In some ways this should hel the UK decide on what to replace the AS-90 and possibly some of the 105mm Light Guns with.
These users liked the author Lord Jim for the post:
leonard

leonard
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 21 May 2016, 17:52
Italy

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by leonard »

All so same more sale statistics for the new CAESAR NG mk 2 and as allways a "little " bit of
triumphalism from the great Nation !!!

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Timmymagic »

If anyone was wondering what artillery the UK is sending to Ukraine...looks like we're sending the Light Gun...

Guardian is reporting that New Zealand is sending 30 soldiers to the UK to help train 230 Ukrainian's on it...

They're also sending 40 sights for it...that suggests that the UK is stripping off any more advanced kit and using legacy sights supplied by New Zealand. Also suggests that we're sending 40 guns...which is 1/3rd of the UK total...

Any chance of an M777 buy to replace the missing guns? Resurrection of LIMAWS(G)? BAE recently reported they might end production of M777 components at Barrow (which makes 30% of M777) if no more orders were forthcoming...

Timmymagic
Donator
Posts: 3224
Joined: 07 May 2015, 23:57
United Kingdom

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by Timmymagic »

Timmymagic wrote: 23 May 2022, 10:39 If anyone was wondering what artillery the UK is sending to Ukraine...looks like we're sending the Light Gun...

Guardian is reporting that New Zealand is sending 30 soldiers to the UK to help train 230 Ukrainian's on it...

They're also sending 40 sights for it...that suggests that the UK is stripping off any more advanced kit and using legacy sights supplied by New Zealand. Also suggests that we're sending 40 guns...which is 1/3rd of the UK total...

Any chance of an M777 buy to replace the missing guns? Resurrection of LIMAWS(G)? BAE recently reported they might end production of M777 components at Barrow (which makes 30% of M777) if no more orders were forthcoming...
Thinking about this for a second....

Are the NZ sights compatible with L118? Sounds like they're removing LINAPS and re-adding old style sights....but New Zealand used L119 NOT L118....

Australia has over 100 L119 in storage....are we just providing training facilties and this is in fact Australian (or someone elses) L119?

Whatever it is it sounds like 40 odd guns...230 Ukrainian's for crew sounds right...

sol
Member
Posts: 527
Joined: 01 Jul 2021, 09:11
Bosnia & Herzegovina

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by sol »

Timmymagic wrote: 23 May 2022, 10:39 Also suggests that we're sending 40 guns...which is 1/3rd of the UK total...
Are there any L118 guns in storage or should all guns be subtracted from 126 guns that are now in active service?
Timmymagic wrote: 23 May 2022, 10:39 Any chance of an M777 buy to replace the missing guns? Resurrection of LIMAWS(G)? BAE recently reported they might end production of M777 components at Barrow (which makes 30% of M777) if no more orders were forthcoming...
Probably not. L118 would be subject of possible replacement with another platform, so unless M777 is the platform that will be replace it, it would be a waste of money to procure M777 and then soon after replace it with something else. Especially considering that by the time M777 become operational it will probably be in service for just a couple of years, if even that long.

Also, by the Future Soldier, there will be only 3 regular regiments using L118 (3 Regiment RHA will transform to MLRS) and one in the Territorial Army with one more providing reinforcement/replacement for other regiments, so even if all guns, that could be potentially be sent to Ukraine, came from active stock, remaining number could be enough for Army needs.

leonard
Member
Posts: 191
Joined: 21 May 2016, 17:52
Italy

Re: 105mm L118 Light gun

Post by leonard »

In the meantime somebody has just arrived in the frontlines in Ukraine right now and this is it first spotting

Post Reply