Israel

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xav
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Israel

Post by xav »

Design of Future TKMS Built Saar 6 MEKO A100 Corvettes for Israeli Navy Unveiled
Image
Israeli web portal Walla! recently published an interview with the head of the Israeli Navy's equipment division, Moshe Zana, who provided some details on the SAAR 6 vessel project ordered from Germany.

Saar 6 class corvettes will be heavily armed: They are set to be fitted with up to 40x (most likely 32x) VLS cells for surface to air missile system Barak 8 by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and C-DOME naval point defense system by Rafael, 16x anti-ship missiles and the MF-STAR multifunction AESA radar by IAI.

The main gun is set to be a 76mm Oto Melara Super Rapid (possibly with Strales guided rounds). In addition, Saar 6 will be fitted with 2x Rafael's Typhoon remote weapon stations and two 324mm torpedo launchers.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3029

Is this a new trend for TKMS or Middle East: small platforms that pack a lot of punch (look at Algeria corvettes too)
16x AShM and 30x + VLS sam are nice, but on such small/compact hulls, at some point "platforms" have to matter more than "systems" no ?

Wrekin762
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Re: Israel

Post by Wrekin762 »

Looks familiar eh? Apparently been in development for 18 months and production begins this year...

DSEI 2015: Rafael unveils SPARC remote-controlled, trailer-mounted Spike NLOS launcher

Image
In development for the past 18 months, but revealed for the first time at DSEI in London in September, the SPARC system has evolved from a truck-mounted solution developed for South Korea, which comprises a static four-cell Spike NLOS launcher mounted on a 4x4 Ford 550 chassis. The South Korean configuration provides for an additional six Spike NLOS missiles stowed in the vehicle's integrated magazine, with the gunner/commander launch control unit (CU) and missile launch computer integrated in the vehicle's cabin.
Article from Janes'

No mention of current operators ;)

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Re: Israel

Post by GastonGlocker »

Gen 4.5 good enough? Silent Eagle a bridge not too far? It's always about the money. Would rather have enough of a 90% solution vs not enough of a 100% solution.

I think with advanced jammer, stealthish lines and incorporating the Gen 5 sensors and engines, we could extend the Gen 4's quite a bit.


https://news.vice.com/article/do-israel ... vicenewsfb

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

xav wrote:Design of Future TKMS Built Saar 6 MEKO A100 Corvettes for Israeli Navy Unveiled
Image
Israeli web portal Walla! recently published an interview with the head of the Israeli Navy's equipment division, Moshe Zana, who provided some details on the SAAR 6 vessel project ordered from Germany.

Saar 6 class corvettes will be heavily armed: They are set to be fitted with up to 40x (most likely 32x) VLS cells for surface to air missile system Barak 8 by Israel Aerospace Industries (IAI) and C-DOME naval point defense system by Rafael, 16x anti-ship missiles and the MF-STAR multifunction AESA radar by IAI.

The main gun is set to be a 76mm Oto Melara Super Rapid (possibly with Strales guided rounds). In addition, Saar 6 will be fitted with 2x Rafael's Typhoon remote weapon stations and two 324mm torpedo launchers.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3029

Is this a new trend for TKMS or Middle East: small platforms that pack a lot of punch (look at Algeria corvettes too)
16x AShM and 30x + VLS sam are nice, but on such small/compact hulls, at some point "platforms" have to matter more than "systems" no ?
Hi Xav, I am pretty sure that you can't get 32 or 40 Barak8s onto that platform, and the source (that did the interview) has got Barak 8 and Barak 1 mixed up.
- quite a different size (and, hence, range)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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xav
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Re: Israel

Post by xav »

ArmChairCivvy wrote: Hi Xav, I am pretty sure that you can't get 32 or 40 Barak8s onto that platform, and the source (that did the interview) has got Barak 8 and Barak 1 mixed up.
- quite a different size (and, hence, range)
Hi ArmChairCivvy and thanks a lot for the heads up!

So it is Barak 1 but how many of them ? 24x cells is probably closer to reality ?

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Xav,

Jane's can tell us this much (but not the number). They are meant to deal with barrages, so lots is my guess. Three existing vessels are to be modified in the interim:
"The source said the navy had according made changes to the Elta EL/M 2248 MF-STAR radar that has been installed on Lahav so it can track rockets fired from the Gaza Strip and guide the ship's Barak 1 missiles to intercept them.

Known as the Barak Adir (Great Lightning) by the navy, the phased-array EL/M 2248 MF-STAR radar was fitted to Lahav as part of a recent upgrade and will be installed on the other two Saar 5 corvettes.

"We altered the system to be able to deal with smaller targets," the source said. "We created a more concentrated, lower detection area, and created new search algorithms," he said.

The system is now capable of tracking ballistic targets, plotting their trajectories, assessing whether they represent a threat, and tasking Barak 1 missiles to intercept them as required.

The Barak 1 is a command-guided missile that does not carry its own seeker, so is guided to its target by signals from the ship's fire control system until it is close enough to be detonated by a proximity fuze.

The sourced added that a rocket was successfully shot down by one of two Barak 1s fired from Lahav during a test in January; the second missile self-destructed after the successful intercept.

Lahav can now station itself near threatened offshore platforms during conflicts and defend them against incoming rocket barrages, as well as more conventional threats."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by GastonGlocker »

arfah wrote:http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /75992878/

Crowded skies over Syria
Indeed!

This: "It’s a kinetic message … to tell other players ‘Don’t cross those lines,’” he said.

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Re: Israel

Post by xav »

Successful Interception Test for IAI's Barak-8 Missile System from Israeli Navy Sa'ar 5 Class Corvette
A successful interception test of the Barak-8 system was conducted from an Israel Navy Sa'ar 5 class corvette, in continuation of the test held in late 2014, when the operational capabilities of the Barak-8 were successfully proven.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ew&id=3278

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

There is some sort of efficiency or efficacy to the whole operation that you have to admire. This will probably cause quite a considerable IR squabble but still, its quite an achivement on the intelligence front.

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by ~UNiOnJaCk~ »

arfah wrote:Espionage is just an alternative means of diplomacy (and warfare).

Every government will ponce itself for information in use for and against friend and foe alike.

We'd never know a thing about it, if it wasn't for the israeli's leaking it to their own media.

What happens now we know, they know, that we know?
Very true. I'd like to think though, when it comes to this sort of thing, that pound for pound we are the best in the business (both offensively and defensively).

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

arfah wrote: What happens now we know, they know, that we know?
Intelligence is not a bad thing to have.

Without the SR71 we would not have known, in almost real time, that Jordan was beating back the Syrian armoured columns. The 6th fleet jets were all armed and engines going... WW3?

And the Israelis are complaining about their guardian angels... get a grip! And stop playing with fire.

=======
If you wonder about where this has been documented, I will be glad to tell you
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If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Im so glad that you asked:

Henry Kissinger made a private deal, on his retirement, with a German publisher
- the details were all there
When the English edition came up, the powers of vetting for what can be said (at that time... it was a while ago!) came into play and the critical pages/ paragraphs just simply disappered.

Now, it is good speak other languages, but to admit, I did not buy that edition. It was in a boutique hotel where I was staying... at that sort of time.
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

arfah wrote:Well, that didn't tell me anything.

Henry Kissinger's written lots of books,[...]

I've not read any.
Err, Henry Kissinger was THE State Department... the State Department (then) sensored his memoirs
- does that tell you anything (the German, uncensored version is still out there, but I bet no reprints...)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:the State Department (then) sensored his memoirs
I think we are talking past each other, He is still around, he was a major player in Obama's first year
... but if you don't read the books (and, thereby, find out how close we got to WW3 in some God (whose?) forgotten& deserted desert; then I can't help you)

This utube is the the world and there's nothing more to it is quite disturbing (only my thought?)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

GastonGlocker wrote:Gen 4.5 good enough? Silent Eagle a bridge not too far? It's always about the money. Would rather have enough of a 90% solution vs not enough of a 100% solution.

I think with advanced jammer, stealthish lines and incorporating the Gen 5 sensors and engines, we could extend the Gen 4's quite a bit.


https://news.vice.com/article/do-israel ... vicenewsfb
That was a good article about balancing 4/ 4.5/ 5th generation fighter fleets (as they come with different price tags and the 4th gen are not going anywhere before they will have served their 30 years). Aviationweek has some similar reporting from the Singapore Air Show (I just wonder why the throw-back to an observation from 2012 was needed in it?):

"[USAF] spending billions on upgrades to their 30-to-35-year-old F-15Cs.

It will be some time, in any scenario, before stealthy aircraft are a big part of the Asia-Pacific fighter inventory, but the Sukhoi family also forces adversaries to look at two other aspects of fighter capability: electronic warfare and weapons.

In October 2012, the supercarrier USS George Washington paid a visit to Malaysia that included a photo-op formation of Super Hornets and Su-30MKMs. Hanging on the wingtips of the Sukhois were fat cylindrical pods – Russian-made KNIRTI SAP-518 active jamming systems. The SAP-518 is not only big and powerful but uses state-of-the-art digital radio-frequency memory (DRFM) technology. Maybe it can beat an attack by an AIM-120C advanced medium air-to-air missile (Amraam) and maybe it can’t, but . . . Do you feel lucky today?

The proliferation of DRFM jamming – the Russians design the DRFM chips but have them made in foreign foundries, which are where you’d expect them to be – triggered renewed U.S. attention to EW self-protection systems after decades of neglect: aside from the Super Hornet’s ALQ-214, the Pentagon hadn’t sponsored a new active jamming system for a fighter since the 1980s.

Israel, Singapore and others had seen that gap earlier, which is why the various warts and excrescences on the Singapore air force fighters here bear examination. The F-16D has a self-protection suite by Elbit’s Elisra subsidiary. The F-15SG’s digital electronic warfare system is also reportedly from Israel.

The F-15SG has a more jamming-resistant active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar and, if the adversary’s EW is still a problem, an infrared search and track (IRST) system. The U.S. Air Force is now funding AESAs, IRST and new EW for its F-15s. The Rafale’s presence is a reminder, too, that Dassault, Saab and the Typhoon partners addressed the EW issue from the outset.

The Sukhoi fighters’ agility challenges weapon design. That the jet is a difficult target for Amraam is beyond serious dispute: the range at which Amraam has a high kill probability declines sharply as targets become more evasive. It was why the MBDA Meteor was developed in the first place.

All the Euro-canards are getting Meteor (it will be fully operational this year on Gripen)."

OK, I reread it and I guess the 2012 observation was the starting shot for results that can be displayed today (and are being rolled out). Amraam type of missiles have their maximum range halved against highly manoeuvreing targets.Add an AESA seeker head to Meteor (which is better from get-go anyway) and you have a real winner.
- the news of next gen US A2A missile come and go, but the belief in no-escape zones working for sure seems to have been eroding, hence the drive to double missile loadout, on these lines (an older piece of reporting, also fro aviationweek):

"... Lockheed Martin’s Cuda, a so-called “Halfraam” weapon about half as long as an Amraam and compact enough to fit six missiles into each bay of the F-35 or F-22. Cuda draws on the hit-to-kill technology used on the PAC-3 missile, is designed to have a radar seeker and has both movable tails and forward attitude control motors for high agility. The company is not disclosing Cuda’s design range, but one variation of the concept is a two-stage missile with a similar total length to Amraam, presumably with the goal of covering a wide range envelope with a single missile design."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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