Israel

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SW1
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Re: Israel

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Timmymagic wrote:
SW1 wrote:Haha an image forever now connected with that a/c. In service with Israel, Italy, Singapore and the US navy.
Apparently there is now some speculation that the buyer could be Greece, which makes more sense with the secrecy involved. But can they afford it?
Could be, suspicion it could be Germany

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

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SW1 wrote:could be Germany
At one point they were talking about filling an Airbus airframe with gadgets, to do EW safely, from "behind the lines".

Now that they have their offensive/ escorting/ topcover EW sorted with Growlers, may be that earlier rqrmnt has shrunk enough, to be fitted into the airframe that we are talking about here?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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SW1 wrote:Could be, suspicion it could be Germany
Possibly could be after the cancellation of their Global Hawk programme. But the Germans usually have a very open procurement system and announcements are made. Thats why I thought Greece might actually be more likely.

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Re: Israel

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:could be Germany
At one point they were talking about filling an Airbus airframe with gadgets, to do EW safely, from "behind the lines".

Now that they have their offensive/ escorting/ topcover EW sorted with Growlers, may be that earlier rqrmnt has shrunk enough, to be fitted into the airframe that we are talking about here?
A global express! Was the German mount

US and aus using gulfstream for similar.

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Re: Israel

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https://www.defensenews.com/global/mide ... orce-unit/

The Air Force commander said at a July 12 ceremony that the 7th Wing will have an enhanced capability that will make special forces more effective during combat, more influential in terms of air superiority, and part of any process or scenario that takes place under the purview of the Air Force.

The 7th Wing will include Air Force special ground units; the commando Shaldag unit; Unit 669, which performs search and rescue operations with helicopters; the Forward Landing Unit; and a dedicated intelligence unit.

The Forward Landing Unit is responsible for building ad hoc runways. This gives the new wing a variety of capabilities to operate in hostile territory with a plethora of assets including helicopters, vehicles, and Hercules C-130HI and Super Hercules C-130s aircraft, which can land at the ad hoc bases from their home at the Nevatim Air Force base. Unit 669 uses Black Hawk and Sikorsky CH-53 helicopters.

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Jensy
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Re: Israel

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IDF declares second F-35I 'Adir' squadron fully operational

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The Israel Air Force’s second F-35i Adir squadron was officially declared operational on Sunday, six months after it was opened.
The 116th Lions of the South squadron is based at Nevatim Air Base. It will now take part in IAF operational activity.
An impressive achievement considering they don't expect to receive their 27th aircraft until November, with 24 delivered so far.

Hopefully there will be increaed efforts to conduct joint training so that other F-35 users can benefit from the experience that Israeli pilots are gaining in their rather specific operating environment.

Link:
https://m.jpost.com/breaking-news/idf-s ... nal-638019

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Re: Israel

Post by J. Tattersall »

The worldwide F35 community will be one to watch. Essentially the democratic world's air forces seem to be increasingly characterised as either F35 equipped or non-F35 equipped.

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Re: Israel

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Lord Jim
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Re: Israel

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Nice video of the Namer and some of the options it has on the battle field.

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Jensy
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Re: Israel

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I'm assuming this is just (very) wishful thinking, though after normalisation with UAE/Bahrain/Sudan, anything seem possible:

Israel Asks U.S. for F-22 Stealth Jets to Preserve Military Edge
Israeli defense officials have confirmed that Jerusalem has asked senior American officials to consider removing obstacles hindering the sale of F-22 fighter jets to the Israeli Air Force to preserve its air superiority following the agreement of the United States to sell the F-35s to the UAE.
Also some internal disagreement between the top brass and their former boss, turned Defence Minister over the long debated V-22 purchase by the IDF:
Gantz’s agreement with the United States has also sparked major criticism within the IDF.

Defense sources have criticized the visiting Israeli delegation’s decision to buy the V-22 Osprey, which the Israel Air Force had decided in the past to do without. The air force thought that the cost of the combination helicopter and airplane was too high, as was the cost of deploying and maintaining it. In addition, the air force thought Sikorsky-Lockheed Martin’s CH-53K helicopter better addressed its needs for future missions and believed it would be easier to integrate into the fleet. Air force representatives also made it clear to the political leadership that they were not interested in purchasing a number of different types of helicopters, unlike combat planes, a variety of which is needed to meet all the needs.

Defense officials said the commander of the air force, Amikam Norkin, is not interested in the V-22 and has made that clear to his superiors. On the other hand, the army’s ground forces and the chief of staff’s office would like to see the IDF receive the V-22 due to its ability to land vertically like a helicopter and to help transport infantry forces.

https://www.haaretz.com/amp/israel-news ... -1.9262787

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

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Jensy wrote: transport infantry forces.
Gantz might be more easily persuaded by the need to get SF far behind the 'enemy lines'... and back again plenty quick (than AF's some obscure increased maintenance burden argument)

It's not about which argument is right, but rather about what (capability wise) is important
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Jensy
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Re: Israel

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote: transport infantry forces.
Gantz might be more easily persuaded by the need to get SF far behind the 'enemy lines'... and back again plenty quick (than AF's some obscure increased maintenance burden argument)

It's not about which argument is right, but rather about what (capability wise) is important
There is from what I understand a three-way split between the Chinook/King Stallion/Osprey factions in IDF HQ.

As you correctly point out, Gantz and his remaining loyalists are very much in the V-22 crowd. They're still thinking in terms of launching long-distance SpecOps missions into Iran, from Israel. However with new alliances in the Gulf, that might not have such a high priority as opportunities for forward basing emerge.

The Air Force is probably keenest on a Chinook (in the hope of saving funds for additional F-15/35s) and the Army want(ed) CH-53K but not certain anymore. With an increasing number of safety incidents and fatal accidents with the legacy CH-53 fleet, I think the aircraft's family reputation has suffered.

The decision was meant to be made by the end of the year but I don't see that happening now.

With burgeoning Israeli defence links to Italy (see today's Gulfstream news), if I were Leonardo I'd be tempted to make a low-ball, unsolicited AW-101 offer amidst the confusion, it is after all the modern Super Frelon.... :shh:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

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Jensy wrote:it is after all the modern Super Frelon....
Available cheaper from China ...and the licence for the build is legit!
Jensy wrote:launching long-distance SpecOps missions into Iran, from Israel. However with new alliances in the Gulf, that might not have such a high priority as opportunities for forward basing emerge.
The distance between Dubai and Shiraz, a proxy for the location of many of the Iran nuclear facilities, is 574 km. Golan is right next to Damascus and from there bird-fly shortest distance between Deir ez-Zor and Damascus is 407 km plus a few
... practically the same those two distances, and the 2007 strike on the Syrian/ N. Korean nuclear reactor was the same distance (again, practically) as proposed for any such from the so-called forward basing areas.

- compare with the ultra-long CH-53 SF mission, still within Syria to destroy their chemical weapons facility... but Deir ez-Zor is about the furthest you can go; so jets it was to be
- and by the way that SF mission with CH-53s is not on the linked u-tube, and the one that is has some SF mentions (on wiki: One report stated that a team of elite Israeli Shaldag special-forces commandos arrived at the site the day before so that they could highlight the target with laser designators, while a later report identified Sayeret Matkal special-forces commandos as involved), but basically the distance dictated it to be an Air Force thing

The last 30 seconds of the video list all the three strikes against nuclear reactors, in the passing.
- the gist is that any one of them would be "prime ministerial stuff" to handle
- and if the current one goes to jail, then the sitting Defence Minister (from a different party) will take over, as per the power sharing agreement between the main parties
... explains the 'keen interest'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Jensy
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Re: Israel

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Excellent interview. Thanks for sharing.

Strong points about relative distances. Until recently I'd suggest the use of sites in Southern Azerbaijan would likely be another option, however that frontier is now far too hot and I expect will remain so for the foreseeable future.

The Yas'urs aren't the only rapidly ageing rotary wing aircraft in the IDF, though probably the most urgent to replace. Next will be their Blackhawks and A model Apaches.

Much like the UK, Israel is going to get caught between the tail end of current platforms, some almost entirely redesigned/rebuilt options, and the apex of the next generation as it replaces its main workhorse helicopter fleets. Will be interesting to see what they pick.

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Re: Israel

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They probably have a plan to upgrade their Blackhawks to UH-60V standard and the Apaches to AH-64E Guardian standard when funding becomes available. As for heavy lift they are looking at the CH-53K and the latest version of the CH-47, both with extra fuel tanks and AAR capability. The MV-22 Osprey is also on the "Wish" list for SF operations, but again funding is an issue as is having to many priorities.

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Re: Israel

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First Sa'ar 6 Corvettes to Join the Israeli Navy in December:

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^ INS Magen (shield) still at ThyssenKrupp Marine Systems
Several of the ships will be deployed to protect the gas fields, leaving one or two to conduct other missions with the rest of Israel’s fleet, which consists of submarines, Sa’ar 5 corvettes and missile boats. The first of the Sa’ar 6 corvettes will be commissioned as INS Magen.

In a briefing with the IDF naval commander, who could only be identified by the initial N for security reasons, the chief said the INS Magen was custom made for Israel’s operational needs, underlining that the main task of the ships will be the defense of Israel’s exclusive economic zone. This also means the ship has a kind of plug-and-play setup so Israel can incorporate domestic combat system add-ons, most of which have an open architecture for interoperability with other Israeli systems.
https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/ ... -warships/
The Sa'ar 6 will be fitted with two naval Iron Dome short-range defense missile launchers with 20 Tamir missiles for each launcher, 32 vertical launch cells for the Barak-8 long-range surface-to-air missile naval defense system, and 16 anti-ship missiles.
The ships, in addition to having interception missile defense systems, will also have 16 anti-ship missiles, one 76-mm. Oto Melara Super Rapid main gun, two Typhoon 25-mm. remote weapon stations and two 324-mm. torpedo launchers for Mark 54 Lightweight Torpedoes. Each ship will also be outfitted with cyber and electronic warfare systems and ELTA’s EL/M-2248 MF-STAR active electronically scanned array radar capable of tracking both air and surface targets.
https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/idf ... hip-648135 (also has a nice bit of video)

She will become the largest combat ship in the Israeli fleet, by displacement, since the last of the ex-RN Z Class Destroyers, INS Yaffo (ex-Zodiac) was sunk in a sinkex in 1970 (though the Z Class were still much longer than the wider Sa'ar 6s).

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

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Jensy wrote:two naval Iron Dome short-range defense missile launchers with 20 Tamir missiles for each launcher, 32 vertical launch cells for the Barak-8 long-range surface-to-air missile naval defense system, and 16 anti-ship missiles.
Now we are talking 8-)
- the 2 x 20 are presumably to counter barrages of unguided rockets... you don't need much of a hit at a gas-drilling platform for it to go up in a puff of smoke, with a 'bang'
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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First Sa'ar 6 Corvette, named 'Magen' (Shield or Defender) has arrived in Haifa.

Image

Can immediately see the size difference with the US-built Sa'ar 5 corvette (minus Phalanx) moored next door. Still only 90m long but a fairly eye-watering weapons capability for her displacement.

https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2020/ ... -warships/

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Re: Israel

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This video has max 5 seconds of footage related to what it talks about, but:
It suggests that Elbit is using the Carmel project, mating that hull to the turret that is in use on Ascods in Thailand, to make/ offer a light tank/ tank destroyer for the Philippines. It also, vaguely, reports that the deal has been done.
- interesting as news about Carmel have been thin on the ground since the concept (and the different versions envisaged) was published
- the US light tank, for their infantry BCTs, is roughly at the same stage, so when more definitive specs emerge, these two will make for an interesting comparison
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Israel to buy King Stallion to replace their CH-53 Yas'ur fleet:



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Re: Israel

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https://www.iaf.org.il/9327-52847-en/IAF.aspx


The 122nd ("Nachshon") Squadron, known as the IAF's ISR (Intelligence, Surveillance, and Reconnaissance) squadron, operates two "Nachshon" aircraft models: "Shavit" (Gulfstream G500) and "Eitam" (Gulfstream G550). Today, the squadron received the newest member of the Nachshon family: the "Oron". "The 'Oron' is yet another manifestation of the IAF's increasing effectiveness", says IAF Commander, Maj. Gen. Amikam Norkin. "The aircraft adds another layer to the IAF's current operational and strategic capabilities, which allow for continued air superiority in the Middle East and an ability to defend Israel's skies and ensure its security".


"The aircraft combines several capabilities including aerial imaging, control and radar, and maritime intelligence gathering for the Navy", explains Maj. I, Deputy Commander of the 122nd Squadron. "The majority of these capabilities already exist in our squadron and the 'Maof Rahav' unit, however, with the new aircraft, we managed to condense them all onto a single flight platform".

Groundbreaking Capabilities
Though the "Oron" looks similar to the "Eitam", its systems are more advanced and allow for a wider range of missions. "The big improvement is in its overall capabilities and diversity of the tasks it can perform", says Maj. I. "The aircraft combines the capabilities of the 'Eitam' and the 'Shavit', reconnaissance aircraft from the Fighter Division, and advanced air-to-surface radar. The plane is not only significant to the Squadron and the IAF, but is an important asset to the entire IDF: it will conduct ISR missions for the Navy using unique systems, all in cooperation with the IDF Intelligence Directorate and the 'Maof Rahav' unit. This is a plane that accommodates all three branches of the Israeli military".

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Israel

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SW1 wrote:the "Oron" looks similar to the "Eitam",
The same symptom as with our different Commands, lifting names from mythology for new assets, starting to emerge?
- isn't Eitam also the army's new 8x8 wheeled APC?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Israel

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Re: Israel

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Very impressive I have to say. I wonder how other nations efforts compare, they may prefer not to publicise their level of capability yet. Mobility seems to be an issue but that should not prevent it form static use, possibly complimenting Iron Dome in Israel as well as on naval vessels.

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Re: Israel

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Definitely impressive, however they are a nation that does take air defence extremely seriously perhaps a lesson we are relearning.

Having said that would like to see a similar test when it’s chucking it down or foggy rather than on a nice clear day to see were we are from a practical point of view.
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