BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

The same on a Leo2 chassis
http://media.moddb.com/images/groups/1/ ... rksman.jpg

Quite a combo with
"the answer is staring us in the face with the Thales Rapidfire system. The 40mm CTA will have a good range and altitude capability"
that (as a heavy load) would for the Warthogs perfectly. Some of them being converted to accompanying resupply vehicles.

Hulls available for both. Just chopping the top off... easy-peasy
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by Timmymagic »

I know it's not the right thread for this sort of thing.....

But how about we do it cheap. Lets sack RapidFire off....

CAMM (L) on Warthog...

Then use the MAN SV's that are not used and marry them up with the RN's retired Goalkeeper systems. Bingo. Almost free...

And believe it or not it can be done. The Chinese have done it....MAN SV copy and Goalkeeper copy. Sweet Jesus....

http://defenseupdates.blogspot.co.uk/20 ... huhai.html

They even did a GDF on the back of MAN SV (the Goalkeeper lashup is also on this page firing, couple of scrolls down)

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-PLA-Div- ... ocId568112

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by bobp »

Mmmmn noticeable is the amount of western products they have cloned.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Now I know why the latest published UK Defence Industrial Strategy paper claimed a two year technical lead time over China
.... it is the time it takes them to copy the latest design!
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by shark bait »

Yep, and our procurement process is so crappy they have it in service before we do!
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Timmymagic wrote:It strikes me that for once with Starstreak and CAMM that we're not in a bad position weapons wise for air defence. There are clearly issues with the platforms, the numbers (as ever) and onward development, with LMM taking the funds for Starstreak 2 and if we're honest we'll probably not see CAMM-ER in Army or Navy service, even though it appears to be a no-brainer with marginal cost for huge gain. A little bit of money and some commitment and for the first time in decades we could have half way decent ground to air protection for fixed sites and mobile units. We still need a gun system, particularly with the proliferation of cheap UAV's, again the answer is staring us in the face with the Thales Rapidfire system. The 40mm CTA will have a good range and altitude capability, either that or we need to dig the GDF out again, or a Marksmans system. Given the number of UAV's fielded it won't be cost effective to kill them off with CAMM or Starstreak, AA guns need to return. Short of a 57mm Bofors or a OTO 76mm land system (and they did make one) 40mm CTA would be a good calibre. It's a pity we didn't have the nouse to get a couple of Patriot batteries from the Germans when they were near giving them away..

But we'll probably blow it and assume the RAF will be there always.....

its not for once with raiper and S15 Javelin we were in a good position. If LMM replaces Starstreak that brings a much more flexible system especially if LMM can be used with a Blast Fragmentation mode like Blowpipe/Javelin/S15. As well as an impact detonated warhead (possibly shaped charge like Blowpipe). the penetrator system was always a bit of a dead end Great for Hinds and Frogfoot but not other targets. UAV's need attacked with fragmentation type warheads and electronically.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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marktigger wrote:its not for once with raiper and S15 Javelin we were in a good position. If LMM replaces Starstreak that brings a much more flexible system especially if LMM can be used with a Blast Fragmentation mode like Blowpipe/Javelin/S15. As well as an impact detonated warhead (possibly shaped charge like Blowpipe). the penetrator system was always a bit of a dead end Great for Hinds and Frogfoot but not other targets. UAV's need attacked with fragmentation type warheads and electronically
Blowpipe eventually became half decent in it's Javelin and Starburst iterations. But Starstreak is a step change. The penetrators will take anything down, the armour penetration aspect is over sold, Hinds and Frogfoots (or A-10's for that matter) carry little armour anyway. Any modern aircraft hit by a projectile travelling at the speed of a Starstreak dart and the half kilo of HE in each is going down. There's no empty spaces or voids in modern aircraft. LMM is essentially an updated and re-roled Starburst with a multi use warhead. The reasons why Starburst was replaced by Starstreak are just as valid today as they were then. If anything the proliferation of attack helicopters with ATGM's makes them even more necessary today. LMM is really filling the role that APKWS does for the US (although I'd love to see APKWS on CRV7 in UK service).
In some ways its good news. A Starstreak mount can take LMM as well. Use the Starstreak for serious AA and the LMM for other targets. But given that we tend to use pedestal mounts rather than Stormer they shouldn't really get in range of any other targets otherwise we've done something wrong (and how many Stormer are there now?).

Rapier was always short range though, 9km range is ok for close in but needed to be backed up for medium or high altitude targets. We haven't had a medium range missile since Thunderbird in the 60's. If we get the numbers back up a little we'll be in better shape than since WW2 with it's 3.5 inch guns, 40mm bofors and 20 mm cannons, some on mobile mounts. A lot is in place now. The Army have ordered 5 decent new radars, the ADAD is good, Stormer was/is good, Starstreak is good. CAMM with it's 25km+ range gives us a degree of medium altitude defence, CAMM-ER with it's 45km+ (and the suspicion is that both those ranges are substantially lower than the reality) takes us into a different league. If we could couple these with a gun system , particularly for mobile units, for the UAV threat we'd be in really good shape. It's likely we'll never get Patriot, MEADS or SAMP-T. But CAMM-ER, would give us capabilities we have't had for decades

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Timmymagic wrote:The Army have ordered 5 decent new radars
The number tells you something: as one of them (at least, due to the terrain) is going to be stuck in the Falklands, and we will have 2 plus 2 bdes for manoeuvre warfare... thats it.

Or, if the two heavier ones work tightly together, a separately landed force somewhere else might also get a protective bubble around it (I think the doctrine still hasnt been updated from " the T45s will provide" such a bubble.
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:The number tells you something: as one of them (at least, due to the terrain) is going to be stuck in the Falklands, and we will have 2 plus 2 bdes for manoeuvre warfare... thats it.

Or, if the two heavier ones work tightly together, a separately landed force somewhere else might also get a protective bubble around it (I think the doctrine still hasnt been updated from " the T45s will provide" such a bubble.
If I remember correctly the units for the Falklands are counted separately. I don't think they're part of the 5. 5 though....it seems awfully low...

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Timmymagic wrote: the units for the Falklands are counted separately
That would be good, as with the contours present in the terrain there not even the most modern radar can do a perfect job as a singleton.
- they have fixed stations there
- the army, surely would get mobile ones for the rest (whatever the number)?
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Starstreak is good but a Shaped charge warhead (like Blowpipe)on impact would certainly Ruin a Hind or Frogfoot or even A10's day. How many impacts are there on Skeet at manobeir? because that gives an indication how it would take on UAV's. I feel a blast fragmentation would give it a better chance. Yes the 3 round LML was a pain in the ass in the days of landrovers (Would Warthog be a better Fire unit vehicle?)
CAMM will be useful but its mobility concerns me is it as Air protable? or have the mobility of Stormmer or Track Raiper.
AA command wasn't exactly mobile in WW2 (Yes there was Truck and Tank chassis mounted guns mainly 20mm polstens and Bofors) having put a Bofors 40/60 & a 3.7(takes about 11 men) into action and taken it out again (hate them). I certainly think that we should have had HAWK or patriot for long ranges and Oerlikon 35mm GDF (Like the rock apes pinched of the argies) for short ranges with the Shorts series of missiles.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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If we keep both on hand we should have the choice, Starstreak for serious targets and LMM for low level UAV's. Hopefully we will invest in some of the electronic attack solutions that are being developed. It could be the thing that really drives direct energy weapon takeup.
CAMM could be portable, the picture I posted higher up illustrates a similar set up on BVS.10 with IRIS-T. The question is a little harder though as CAMM will be RF guided from the ground and soft launched from canister. It will need to be cued by another system to fire, rather than pointed in the direction and then letting the IR head take over.

The thing that gets my goat is that we have a comparatively large defence budget, we have the building blocks in place, we'll procure some, ut as usual we'll just miss the mark, either by spoiling a ship for a haporth of tar or lack of imagination. For the first time in 60 years we could have decent AA protection for the Army and deployed forces, and in a time when the actual threat of attack from the air, either via UAV's or by precision guided weapons is getting increasingly widespread. The old fallback of the RAF dealing with the air threat just doesn't hold water with the new paradigm.

Incidentally, I used to know an American chap who knew an awful lot about SAM's and missiles in general due to his work. In his opinion the Bloodhound was a terrific bit of kit, and was pretty much the most effective out there in real war conditions until the mid to late 80's. Thunderbird was a different missile despite looking similar, but was in many respects superior to the Hawk (until later generations). Mind you he had a similar opinion of the Swingfire.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by marktigger »

Warthog could be a useful Fire unit vehicle for "Light Roled" Starstreak/LMM battery.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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marktigger wrote:Oerlikon 35mm GDF (Like the rock apes pinched of the argies) for short ranges
Did not know any of them were made operational. All captured were sent to factory (Swiss ) for refurb, and then used to trial tactics against them (as they, both as guns and as radar/control units were the best of breed).
Timmymagic wrote: The question is a little harder though as CAMM will be RF guided from the ground and soft launched from canister. It will need to be cued by another system to fire, rather than pointed in the direction and then letting the IR head take over.
Not quite as the RF is just to guide it to the right sector, and the active seeker head can then do its job
- IR seeking missiles also have a limited angle (of search and lock-on) and this can be a real problem when launched from the ground at something that is (at low level) passing in a second or two.
- in fact, it is best to have them only as SHORAD as otherwise your outer layers of the onion (your own fighters!) might get shot down
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
marktigger wrote:Oerlikon 35mm GDF (Like the rock apes pinched of the argies) for short ranges
Did not know any of them were made operational. All captured were sent to factory (Swiss ) for refurb, and then used to trial tactics against them (as they, both as guns and as radar/control units were the best of breed).
RAF Regt Aux Sqn at Waddington had them.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I can see a connection there to Boscombe Down (I bet they got to shoot a lot more [in that location] than their peer units, generally):

The Air Warfare Centre, known as the AWC, is a Royal Air Force research and testing organization based at RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire in the United Kingdom. It has a training branch nearby as a lodger unit of RAF Cranwell and other branches elsewhere, including at High Wycombe, Brize Norton, Boscombe Down, and Odiham
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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marktigger wrote:AF Regt Aux Sqn at Waddington had them.
Yes they did. They were fully operational. In fact if I remember correctly the Skyguard radars are still in use by the RAF to police low flying areas, an aerial speed trap so to speak.

Waddington used to have (in the 80's) a very large battle damage repair organisation as well, more so than other RAF stations.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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marktigger wrote:Warthog could be a useful Fire unit vehicle for "Light Roled" Starstreak/LMM battery.
It would be great for Exactor as well. It has the seperate crew cab, which is useful to keep crew and sensors seperate from ordnance, power generation, good mobility, air portable... and it's free....far too good an idea, it will never happen.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:Not quite as the RF is just to guide it to the right sector, and the active seeker head can then do its job
- IR seeking missiles also have a limited angle (of search and lock-on) and this can be a real problem when launched from the ground at something that is (at low level) passing in a second or two.
- in fact, it is best to have them only as SHORAD as otherwise your outer layers of the onion (your own fighters!) might get shot down
Given that we're only getting 5 Giraffe radars it does rather make you wonder what is going to be doing the cueing in a future army. ADAD's presumably. Those 5 radars are an awfully tempting target for an enemy though. I always think we should build our air defences on the basis that we have no aircraft at all. Seems a safer proposition than being surprised when they aren't there, particularly with the cost and availability of fighters these days.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Given that we're only getting 5 Giraffe radars it does rather make you wonder what is going to be doing the cueing in a future army.
At least 10 with the additional order placed last year. 5 were originally procured for LEAPP; then they became 6, and then an undisclosed number of additional radars was purchased last year that brought the total in "double figures". Probably 10 or 12. The early ones were also upgraded to the latest standard as part of the order. Was a rare bit of good news.
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Timmymagic wrote:Given that we're only getting 5 Giraffe radars it does rather make you wonder what is going to be doing the cueing in a future army.
OK, Gabriele set the record straight on numbers. It is still worth noting that a Giraffe in land environment is a Bde level AD asset (not that we have AD Bdes!) as for the area that it covers. Not only for recognising threats but for deconflicting the airspace, too. Which is the thing that makes it "bde level" as at that level it is possible to keep a lid on ground fires (coordination).
- what is a bdes area of Ops? Well, if the 70 km sniper is sitting right next to the Bde HQ, then it is a 70 km circle (hopefully some friendly forces cover at least 90 to 180 degrees of that! )
- a bde has no organic assets for effects beyond that distance; Watchkeepers may come under that level of command, but (so far) they produce no "effects"

Then, the fact that fire control radars abound, that is a different matter
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

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Gabriele wrote:At least 10 with the additional order placed last year. 5 were originally procured for LEAPP; then they became 6, and then an undisclosed number of additional radars was purchased last year that brought the total in "double figures". Probably 10 or 12. The early ones were also upgraded to the latest standard as part of the order. Was a rare bit of good news.
As ever thanks for the update Gabriele. The final figure includes the Falklands radars doesn't it? I'm assuming that there are at least 3 of those?

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by Gabriele »

I don't really know that. It might be. More might come depending on what sensor the Army decides to put into CAMM batteries.
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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by marktigger »

given giraffe can also do mortar locating as well it seams a very flexible bit of kit.

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Re: BvS 10 Viking All Terrain Armoured Vehicle

Post by Caribbean »

Wasn't there some chat about re-roleing the Rapier radars for use with CAMM?
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