Javelin Anti-Tank Missile (British Army)

[SKB]

Javelin missile launch!

[marktigger]

can we re title Javelin Anti tank missile to avoid confusion with

[RetroSicotte]

https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity ... ffcdaf5d16

An upgrade RFI in the US to boost Javelin's killing power, portability (weight reduction) and to improve its range to 4-5km.

Seems like a logical thing to get involved with. It's proven, it's capable of all thats needed of it and we already use it/are trained in it/have supporting logistics in place.

[ArmChairCivvy]

err,

Spike, then... out to ER. Have a look at how weight adds on.

[RetroSicotte]

Spike-ER weighs 60kg+ for a unit.

Javelin at current is less than 30kg, set to only get lighter. ER isn't the same class of weapon, unfortunately.

[mr.fred]

The Spike ER may not be the same class as the Javelin, but the Spike MR/LR is.
Spike NLOS is in a class all of it's own.

Javelin is in service.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Spike-ER weighs 60kg+ for a unit.

Javelin at current is less than 30kg, set to only get lighter. ER isn't the same class of weapon, unfortunately.

I think mr. fred is close to the answer [except that all of those that we are talking about are in service, maybe just not in the UK... how long did it take for us to find out about NLOS?]

Class of these types of weapons is determined (in my view):
- primarily by range
- not by warhead (they will all do the job, would not sell otherwise), but adaptability is a further plus
- secondarily, by the weight (the whole thing, not just the missile): only the Norgie Vikings are strong enough to get a Hellfire, with trappings, from a boat to the shoreline, then to launch it (Spike ER is a tad more doable, the feeble Finnish Marines use that one)

[RetroSicotte]

Class of these types of weapons is determined (in my view):
- primarily by range
- not by warhead (they will all do the job, would not sell otherwise), but adaptability is a further plus
- secondarily, by the weight (the whole thing, not just the missile): only the Norgie Vikings are strong enough to get a Hellfire, with trappings, from a boat to the shoreline, then to launch it (Spike ER is a tad more doable, the feeble Finnish Marines use that one)

I don't think you'll get very far asking an infantry squad to pull 60-65kg apparatus around for a single missile, mate. :p

It's shooting way beyond "a moderate range boost for some extra weight" and into the realms of simply impossible to lug around. Just look at the size of the thing!

http://www.rafael.co.il/marketing/SIP_S ... /9/269.jpg

Spike-ER is a much more vehicle operated or fixed position setup type deal, like a TOW missiles. Javelin is a squad mobile piece and it's already considered a heavy bit of kit at less than half the weight of the ER. Spike-ER is in a completely different role.

[marktigger]

interesting we bought spike ER and spike is almost NATO standard

[mr.fred]

interesting we bought spike ER and spike is almost NATO standard

Who's "we" in this instance?

To expand on my previous comment, Javelin is in service with the British army, which provides some incumbent advantage should people feel the need to change.

Interestingly Javelin, as it is now, is similar to Spike MR while the upgrade would put it on a par with Spike LR. Although there have been some tests that suggest that the Javelin has the ability to reach 4km, but reliably hitting things at that distance is dependent on a suitable seeker picture, which is dependent on weather conditions.

[ArmChairCivvy]

We haven't bought Spike ER, but NLOS... quite a few different missiles called "Spike"

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/gill/

Was looking for mini-Spike, it has been announced but not sure if commercially launched, but at least Yahoo did not find it.

[shark bait]

We haven't bought Spike ER, but NLOS... quite a few different missiles called "Spike"

In service as exactor as part of an UOR. I think it's been brought into the core as part of the royal artillery's plan for army 2020, but unsure what vehical its going to be on, possibly warthog?

[marktigger]

sorry what I ment to say is we bought Javelin yet spike is almost NATO standard. Interesting in the run up to the announcement of Javelin there were lots of stories in the press linking Spike with Israeli actions in Gaza and the west bank. So spike would Hardly be a very PC system for NU labour to buy. I wonder how many of the stories were planted to sway the decision?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Yep, M113s definitely out after Afghanistan. Even piccies of that mysterious NLOS trailer have by now emerged.

Warthog, with a loading arm for resupply would be ideal to tow it.. Was always wondering why the RA would need 100 Warthogs for a much smaller number of Watchkeepers (that need an airstrip anyway; of course they will also need ground stations further forward).

[ArmChairCivvy]

Is it known how much heftier the new Javelin would be, here are some comparable weights:

Weights:
Spike-MR/Spike-LR Missile in Canister 13kg
Spike-MR/Spike-LR Firing Post 9kg (command launch unit 5kg, thermal sight 4kg)
Spike-MR/Spike-LR Battery 1kg
Spike-MR/Spike-LR Tripod 3kg
Spike-ER Missile in Canister 33kg
Spike-ER Launcher 55kg
Spike-ER Launcher + 4 Missiles 187kg
Spike-ER Tripod 3kg

[jimthelad]

No disrespect but this discussion dose not take into account about how they are bloody well used. This leads to a classic REMF interpretation and the poor bastards on the ground get hernias and then mullahed in that order!!
It isn't just the all up weight of the system but modality of use and the number of fire units allocated to the troops.

For instance a typical MILAN fire support section of 8 blokes would have 4 launchers allocated with 3 rounds per launcher in manpack (1 loaded, 2 man packed) giving a grand total of 12 rounds for use. That would last about 260 seconds of unit fire time before rounds complete and require firing from hard positions or up to 3 x 4 fire unit moves. Such a section would have 3 repetitions for a support platoon.

We used 2 launchers and 20 rounds in a fire section in the Paras which gave us a more mobile unit with higher persisitance under engagement. Javelin has a similar utilisation AFAIK. Any range increments would be welcome but in most theatres these will be line of site engagements where minimum range is sometimes more pressing. To be honest, the single most worrying factor as platoon commander was the total number of rounds we could carry. If we could ditch the 81mm rounds we were obliged to carry then we could carry an extra 4 rounds per section. This gave us a more sporting chance if the shit hit the fan given a 85% first round hit probability. SPIKE is great but a heavy bastard, Great for mounted use and in IFV but in reality if the range upgrade for JAVELIN goes ahead then it ticks all boxes and has commonality with all users which is a win win in my opinion.

[shark bait]

Yep, M113s definitely out after Afghanistan. Even piccies of that mysterious NLOS trailer have by now emerged.

Warthog, with a loading arm for resupply would be ideal to tow it.. Was always wondering why the RA would need 100 Warthogs for a much smaller number of Watchkeepers (that need an airstrip anyway; of course they will also need ground stations further forward).

Yes those where my thoughts exactly. supporting UAV operations is the official reason, but they have always been secretive about exactor. My guess is using the UAV to identify a target them exactor to hit it, all from warthogs.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Warthog being heavier than Viking, may be not chinook luggable (even in two bits), but definitely can be airlanded, and after that a "go-anywhere" platform.

Halfway through this
http://defense-update.com/products/b/bronco_191208.html
there is a photo of the 3-part combo that I had in mind for use with Exactor.

[RetroSicotte]

Over 1,000 vehicles for £150m? What happened to them? :p

[shark bait]

Halfway through this
http://defense-update.com/products/b/bronco_191208.html
there is a photo of the 3-part combo that I had in mind for use with Exactor.

Oooo I've not seen something like that before. That looks like a reasonable platform. Do we have the 3 part ?

[riksavage]

All they've done is hitched a trailer to the rear section, can't be that difficult!

[marktigger]

could the Exactor Mk1 system reappear mounted on warrior to replace Swingfire/striker now it looks like armour is now back on the threat radar

[shark bait]

All they've done is hitched a trailer to the rear section, can't be that difficult!

Sure sounds simple but I bet it isn't ! Especially if your hauling explosives around a warzone

[shark bait]

Warthog being heavier than Viking, may be not chinook luggable (even in two bits), but definitely can be airlanded, and after that a "go-anywhere" platform.

Halfway through this
http://defense-update.com/products/b/bronco_191208.html
there is a photo of the 3-part combo that I had in mind for use with Exactor.

I swear I've seen that it can, a quick Google put the vehicle at 15 tonnes, over the Chinook's 10 tonne capacity. I would guess in bits of could then be lifted, but seems like alot of effort .

[ArmChairCivvy]

Let's speculate further:

If the two parts of Warthog would work the same way as Viking does, as Chinook loads, the fire unit is so light that they (several) could be lifted in multiples (by other helos, too).

Then the Warthog could be a resupply unit driving around, and when necessary also relocating those fire units.