UK Defence Forum

The building of Artificial Islands is, IMHO akin to piracy on the high seas. Just what you propose a River B2 could do about that (apart from possibly monitoring the event) I cannot see.

Scimitar54 wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 20:17 The building of Artificial Islands is, IMHO akin to piracy on the high seas. Just what you propose a River B2 could do about that (apart from possibly monitoring the event) I cannot see.

Not all FONOPS need warships, plus one of the most powerful assets China has in the region is its paramilitary fishing fleets. By using OPVs it allows action below the level of open conflict.

Unfortunately your reply did not answer the question posed!
In your earlier post, you had raised the scenario of illegal artificial island creation and inferred that the RB2 was the correct vessel to deal with it. HOW?

Repulse wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 19:55 As an aside, my holiday reading has included The Shadow War by Jim Sciutto - a very good book and whilst written in 2019 it’s still amazing how the war has hotted up with Russia and China since then.

The relevance is that I think the River Class is a perfect class to act on behalf of HMG in the region, where sub conflict actions are taking place on a daily basis from illegal fishing to seizure of EEZ by building artificial islands.

I don't think the River B2's are perfect, but they are the best we have got in the Indo-Pacific region until T31's start entering service in the late 2020's. And even then T31's are not designed or equipped to be Tier One Warships, capable of going up against a naval superpower such as PLAN.

But in the meantime they have at least shown the Royal Ensign and worked with allied nations such as Australia, New Zealand, Singapore and Malaysisa, as well as visiting countries such as Fiji, Samoa, Palau and Vanuatu.

I still fear for them though if tensions rise much further with China. They are smaller and less well armed than the Chinese Coastguard ships.

Scimitar54 wrote: ↑23 Aug 2022, 23:07 Unfortunately your reply did not answer the question posed!
In your earlier post, you had raised the scenario of illegal artificial island creation and inferred that the RB2 was the correct vessel to deal with it. HOW?

The context here is important, I am firmly on the side of thought that China and Russia are already at war with the US. This war is not a hot war, and in fact both China and Russia are actively using everything in their toolbox to gain advantage/increase their regional (and longer term global) power bar actually fighting a major conflict with the US. This ranges from cyber, terrorism, assassinations, interference in politics/ spreading of fake news, illegal fishing and illegal annexation of disputed territories either by force (Ukraine, Georgia etc) or by effectively building an island and planting a flag. If there is no significant pushback or repercussions, their actions get bolder.

Ultimately, it could and probably will at some point turn into a hot war, but for now it’s a low level war, fought below the threshold of major conflict, but backed with the credible threat of hard power.

Every other country on the planet now needs to decide if they are picking a side or sitting on the fence in some hope it will win them favourable terms once the new order is established.

It feels that India, Brazil, Germany and to a degree France (and therefore the EU) is more content to watch than get involved. The UK, with its global interests and close ties to the US cannot, neither can Japan, Australia and Canada who are threatened in their regions from the impact from increased Chinese and Russian power.

The UK has no choice but get involved in supporting the US in the low level fight, as well as enforcing its hot war fighting capabilities, both against Russia and China.

Now, for the RN deploying two River Class patrol craft to the Indo Pacific region is the perfect contribution to the low level fight. They are not hot war fighting vessels, they are purely defensive and constabulary in nature, and as such cannot ignite a hot war themselves. They are however, capable of operating virtually anywhere for long periods of time, supporting local allies in protecting their EEZs and ensuring that China understands that the UK is watching and will act when low level incursions happen. When coupled with deployments of the CSG or SSNs this additionally adds to the collective hot war deterrence - but not in a way that could ignite a hot war.

In terms of stopping Island building, you have to understand how these things start. It is not the PLAN rocking up with a battle group and planting a flag, it’s years of low level incursions, harassment of local fishing fleets by Chinese paramilitary fishing fleets making areas no-go so that the dredgers can come in. By having a OPV in the area, that has staying power, combats this - having a frigate inflames the situation opening up the usual “building empire 2.0” narrative.

That’s why I believe the B2s should remain in their current role, and the T31s should be built to add to the RNs war fighting capability. By putting a T31 in the situation I’ve described will make things much worse - it will be seen as a frigate with the potential to (or be used to) heighten tensions, but worse it will not be one as it’s not equipped as such. Also, given their size they will only be able to operate in a fraction of the areas the B2s are able to.

The same is the case in the South Atlantic and Africa where the new great game is being played.

From HMS Forth twitter page... Just a great view of the island.

After the River B1,'s have been recently part of RN effort on shadowing Russian ships in UK waters, the cynical side of me wonders whether dazzle camo paint is chesper than upgrading their weapons or systems.

Well with the 20mm going out of service they might get a old 30mm or they could just get a 12.7mm

Tempest414 wrote: ↑06 Sep 2022, 09:45 Well with the 20mm going out of service they might get a old 30mm or they could just get a 12.7mm

You have spoken before about the improvements of the Type 31's new Bofors 40 mm Automatic Gun L/70 versus the 30mm DS30M Mark 2 Bushmaster, in terms of range, weight of fire and rate of fire. My one frustration with that, is that IF it was the right secondary gun to put on the T31, then why was it not also the right secondary gun to be put on the T26, and/or the right primary gun for smaller ships??

We have spoken before about uparming the River B2's. My personal preference remains for a slight uparming of the River B2's. Given that the Bofors 40mm is NON-deck penetrating, then I think it should be a relatively cheap upgrade for the B2's (or at least just Spey and Tamar). Then I would like them backed up by a couple of secondary guns - even if just 12.7mm.

This would then give the River B1's the POSSIBILITY of getting rid of their old 20mm Oerlikon 20 mm cannon with more modern guns being trickled down from the bigger ships - as you suggested maybe the 30mm DS30M Mark 2 Bushmaster, or even just a couple of 12.7mm.

If all the River B1's are doing is patrolling the UK EEZ then I don't think they the 20mm replacing unless they have to be scrapped as obsolescent. Howver my earlier comment was more about the B1's being asked to shadow such heavily armed Russian warships in the English Cannel and Irish Sea - but THAT is a relfection of how thinly stretched our escorts are.....

The role of any ship shadowing Russian ships in the channel is deconfliction of other shipping as the Russian ship turn off there ATS

The B1's are really now all about patrol of UK waters even if they were to be down armed to 3 x 12.7mm they still have the same range and rate of fire just not the punch if you want a little more punch cheap fit a single LMM pole or carry say 6 to 8 Hero 120

The B2's yes I would like to see them all fitted with the 40mm as I have said before I think the only reason they are fitted with the 30mm is it was the biggest weapon we had below the 114mm at the time and the 40 & 57mm went on the table as type 31 was not a thing. What I would like to see is the B2's fitted with a 40mm plus 4 x 12.7mm GAU-19's and 12 + Hero 120

HMS Forth is visiting Rio De Janeiro. In Brazilian defense force page, we can also see Argentina OPV on site (I could not identify Forth in this photo)



see also https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/nav ... centenario

Great movie of HMS Tamar... Beautiful and impressive...

Impressive HMS Tamar at Japan.

HMS Spey training with Kiwi P-3K. Good thing to be there, be together, and say hello.

Good detailed movie from a Japanese youtuber videopro8570495.

PS Flying bridge of River B2 looks seldom used. Can it be removed so that additional sensors and UAV control antenna can be located there?

Another candidate will be two triple LMM/StarStreak launchers. In everyday duties, it is just a pole = no money needed. When needed, those MANPADS together with operators (may be RM soldiers) can be added.

HMS Medway kept silence for long. Now she reports her tasks on hurricane season.

Great work, HSM Spey!!

The last photo, showing HMS Spey along with Damen Sigma 10514 light frigate/heavy corvette is impressive. Not saying which is better, they have very different capabilities. But both looks nice. Will be a good opportunity to share experiences (as anyway most of the tasks for Sigma 10514 will also be patrol...

I believe the Sigma 10514s are the ones that will be replaced by the two new T31s.

Interestingly, they are about the same dimensions as many have proposed for the RB3, if it ever were to be built. 105m x 14 and 2350t or thereabouts.

You can pack a lot into a small hull, it seems. Carries 1x76mm, 2 x 20mm, 30mm Millennium gun, 12 x Mica VL, 8 x Exocet and 2 x triple LWT tubes and hangar/ flight deck for an AS565 Panther.

Needs a crew of 120, though

Caribbean wrote: ↑06 Oct 2022, 20:53 Interestingly, they are about the same dimensions as many have proposed for the RB3, if it ever were to be built. 105m x 14 and 2350t or thereabouts.

You can pack a lot into a small hull, it seems. Carries 1x76mm, 2 x 20mm, 30mm Millennium gun, 12 x Mica VL, 8 x Exocet and 2 x triple LWT tubes and hangar/ flight deck for an AS565 Panther.

Needs a crew of 120, though

It’s an interesting comparison (and a great photo) but personally I see the OPVs as maritime security assets, flying the flag and conducting basic HADR if required. A single 40mm plus Artisan would be enough for a RB3 IMO in an effort to keep the crew allocation at a sensible level.

If required a helo could be embarked and CAMM and/or Captas 2/4 could be added via PODs.

Could OPVs ever replace the frigates in the gulf?

Perhaps a pair of RB3s forward based in the Gulf with a single 57mm, 2x40mm, Artisan and containerised CAMM would allow the T31s to be armed like proper GP Frigates, just like the vessels they are replacing.

Getting the RB3s in the water for RN would give any chances of exports a massive boost. Many navies around the world must be looking at the RB2s and liking what they see.

A small class of four 105m RB3s built for £500m (plus GFE) would seem like a fantastic increase in UK global presence for a very small cost.

If HMG is serious about growing the escort/patrol fleet then doubling the number of forward based OPVs is just about the only realistic way to achieve it in the next 10 years.

We could just upgrade the 5 B2's with Artisan or NS100 radar fit a 57 or 40mm and add a Camcopter. once they have a 3D radar they could carry a CAMM pod as and when they can already carry unmanned MCM & ASW and the operating crew for these would come with the system so not part of the core crew

The way I see it adding a 57mm and 3D radar will not add to the core crew of 45 by adding a Camcopter this would take the crew to 50 but this would be a 5 man FAA unit if a CAMM pod was needed it could come with 3 Air warfare officers

The B2's should also be given 8 to 10 Hero 120's giving them a 60+ KM ( or 120 km if launched from a ORC ) stand off strike capability without the need for any upgrade or extra crew

These deployments seem like a great recruitment tool and/or training exercise for future crew of T26s.

At minimal cost we've rekindled old partnerships and flown the flag, good stuff

Incremental upgrades to the B2 Rivers to allow them to remain in their Global Patrol role makes a lot of sense.

I’d argue also for a third batch of Rivers, but perhaps more aligned to what the requirements that the MCM programme has, as a batch of 5 could replace both the B1 Rivers and also cover the role expected for the 3 MCM PSVs.