River Class (OPV) (RN)

[SKB]

The three Batch 1 Rivers (Tyne, Severn & Mersey) were built by Vosper Thornycroft at their Woolston yard in S**th*mpt*n, which explains their ugliness and fondness for rusting....

[Tempest414]

I for one really like the look of the B1's they have the look of a WW11 destroyer about them as for there robustness I think they have done well for the money putting in some 16,800 sea going days in the last 20 years and looking like they will need to put in another 5 years or so

[tomuk]

The best angle for the B1s is out of the water where you can see how the hull sweeps round in one complete arc.

[donald_of_tokyo]

[Tempest414]

Will be interesting to keep an eye on HMS Tamar to build up an Idea of sea going days this year

So far she spent Christmas in Port in Malaysia she then moves to the Andaman Islands for a Port visit on the 8th to start a 5 day working visit which included a cocktail night on the 10th she then leaves on the 13th or 14th and arrives in port in Bangladesh on the 15th were she held another cocktail party on the 17th she leaves Bangladesh on the 26th and goes quit for 20 day were she arrives in port in Diego Garcia on the 16th

so it looks to me so far that she spent about 35 days at sea out of the last 50


Just as a note I said last year my thinking was the Rivers were working out at 5 days in port for every 20 at sea

Also I have not really looked at Spay but she seems to have been working the same pattern

[donald_of_tokyo]

Will be interesting to keep an eye on HMS Tamar to build up an Idea of sea going days this year

So far she spent Christmas in Port in Malaysia she then moves to the Andaman Islands for a Port visit on the 8th to start a 5 day working visit which included a cocktail night on the 10th she then leaves on the 13th or 14th and arrives in port in Bangladesh on the 15th were she held another cocktail party on the 17th she leaves Bangladesh on the 26th and goes quit for 20 day were she arrives in port in Diego Garcia on the 16th

so it looks to me so far that she spent about 35 days at sea out of the last 50


Just as a note I said last year my thinking was the Rivers were working out at 5 days in port for every 20 at sea

Also I have not really looked at Spay but she seems to have been working the same pattern

I agree it is interesting number, but unfortunately there is not other numbers to compare.

HMS Tamar and Spey are doing many "diplomatic visit" during visit, not devoting every time for maintenance and crew rest. So, their sea-going days cannot be as long as those for Fishery Protection, for sure.

[SW1]

How many days has Trent been to sea?

[donald_of_tokyo]

How many days has Trent been to sea?

Not sure. HMS Trent is in trouble and hence in long maintenance (which was of course unplanned).

[Tempest414]

Medway and Forth are the other 2 of the Class that have been putting in the sea time

For me it will be interesting to watch as there has been a lot of talk about sea going days of the RB2's v T-31 because until we know or at least know enough to have a educated guess then we can't judge T-31 when they come on line

[Tempest414]

A quick look at Medway looks to show a similar pattern of 20 to 25 days at sea followed by 5 to 8 day in ports

[wargame_insomniac]

HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia.

I hadn’t realised that this is the first visit by a RN ship for 65 years. I know others disagree, but what a great diplomatic capability these ships are giving, for a very modest price.

[Tempest414]

HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia.

I hadn’t realised that this is the first visit by a RN ship for 65 years. I know others disagree, but what a great diplomatic capability these ships are giving, for a very modest price.

I would agree that the B2's are doing a great job of Flag waving but any number of classes of RN ships over the last 65 years could have pull in to Cambodia had the will been the to do so this

[donald_of_tokyo]

But they didn’t. The number of ‘first for xx years’ visits for these two ships is impressive and valuable. People want to trivialise it, but the diplomatic capability that the two OPVs are giving is far beyond anything since the withdrawal from EoS.

[Tempest414]

But they didn’t. The number of ‘first for xx years’ visits for these two ships is impressive and valuable. People want to trivialise it, but the diplomatic capability that the two OPVs are giving is far beyond anything since the withdrawal from EoS.

Look they are doing a great job but it is only down to political will it is not down to the design of the B2's that have magically opened up the ports of the indo-Pacific

I don't want to trivialise the great work of the B2's and the importance of these visits but it was a political choice to withdraw from EoS we could of kept say 3 x T-21's EoS they could or would have carried out many of these visits years ago

[SW1]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

[wargame_insomniac]

Look they are doing a great job but it is only down to political will it is not down to the design of the B2's that have magically opened up the ports of the indo-Pacific

I don't want to trivialise the great work of the B2's and the importance of these visits but it was a political choice to withdraw from EoS we could of kept say 3 x T-21's EoS they could or would have carried out many of these visits years ago

It is exactly down to the design why the B2 are being a great success. They are cheap and with their shallow draft / size can visit ports larger ships can’t.

[Repulse]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

Diplomacy is much more than cocktail parties as you know it. To trivialise the benefits of such visits, and associated training opportunities, is just bizarre.

Sure HMS Enterprise was in the area, but as you say was busy - so what?

[SW1]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

Diplomacy is much more than cocktail parties as you know it. To trivialise the benefits of such visits, and associated training opportunities, is just bizarre.

Sure HMS Enterprise was in the area, but as you say was busy - so what?

What training are they undertaking and what coverage has the visit had in Cambodia?

The important diplomacy isnt happening on a opv… it’s like an iteration of the national flagship discussion.

The so what is, was such a visit considered important it would have been done before now.

Is not the reason the opvs are poping into to so many port not the fact being a small offshore patrol vessel they lack range and endurance to be at sea for much time before needing to replenish and as they have no at sea replenishment capability need to make port.

[Tempest414]

Look they are doing a great job but it is only down to political will it is not down to the design of the B2's that have magically opened up the ports of the indo-Pacific

I don't want to trivialise the great work of the B2's and the importance of these visits but it was a political choice to withdraw from EoS we could of kept say 3 x T-21's EoS they could or would have carried out many of these visits years ago

It is exactly down to the design why the B2 are being a great success. They are cheap and with their shallow draft / size can visit ports larger ships can’t.

Where have they gone that say a Echo or T-21 could not

[Tempest414]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

Diplomacy is much more than cocktail parties as you know it. To trivialise the benefits of such visits, and associated training opportunities, is just bizarre.

Sure HMS Enterprise was in the area, but as you say was busy - so what?

well the point is a T-31 can be in the area and work along side all these navies without dropping into very port and if it want to host people on board in places it can't dock it can fly them on board with it helicopter or deploy two sea boats

[donald_of_tokyo]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

Diplomacy is much more than cocktail parties as you know it. To trivialise the benefits of such visits, and associated training opportunities, is just bizarre.

Sure HMS Enterprise was in the area, but as you say was busy - so what?

What training are they undertaking and what coverage has the visit had in Cambodia?

The important diplomacy isnt happening on a opv… it’s like an iteration of the national flagship discussion.

The so what is, was such a visit considered important it would have been done before now.

Is not the reason the opvs are poping into to so many port not the fact being a small offshore patrol vessel they lack range and endurance to be at sea for much time before needing to replenish and as they have no at sea replenishment capability need to make port.

Look they are doing a great job but it is only down to political will it is not down to the design of the B2's that have magically opened up the ports of the indo-Pacific

I don't want to trivialise the great work of the B2's and the importance of these visits but it was a political choice to withdraw from EoS we could of kept say 3 x T-21's EoS they could or would have carried out many of these visits years ago

It is exactly down to the design why the B2 are being a great success. They are cheap and with their shallow draft / size can visit ports larger ships can’t.

I agree that these many "first in decades" visit is enable because it is River OPVs. But, I do NOT think it is because of "shallower draft". Most of the Merchant vessels has larger draft than T22/T42/T22, which were sent to far east for FPDA deployment, a standing task (for a half an year) before 2010. And, all ports of visit of these OPVs, to my knowledge, are used by these merchant vessels? Only the port of Andaman islands may differ, but not sure.

I understand it is because of its high availability. RN is now operating 2 ships in the region. And these two ships are famous for having the highest designed sea-going days per year. Operating 2 OPVs is, of course, much much cheaper than operating a frigate there. And, two OPVs can steam and visit many places, of course, more than twice of that of an escort, may be 3-4 times more.

"3-4 times more availability" means they can visit "lower priority" ports. And I think this is the reason for many ""first in decades visit".

[wargame_insomniac]

HMS enterprise spent 15 months in the region around 2019. but maybe she had a more important role than just cocktail parties.

The FCO has had regular and important diplomatic engagements in Cambodia for a considerable number of years now

Diplomacy is much more than cocktail parties as you know it. To trivialise the benefits of such visits, and associated training opportunities, is just bizarre.

Sure HMS Enterprise was in the area, but as you say was busy - so what?

What training are they undertaking and what coverage has the visit had in Cambodia?

The important diplomacy isnt happening on a opv… it’s like an iteration of the national flagship discussion.

The so what is, was such a visit considered important it would have been done before now.

Is not the reason the opvs are poping into to so many port not the fact being a small offshore patrol vessel they lack range and endurance to be at sea for much time before needing to replenish and as they have no at sea replenishment capability need to make port.

Look they are doing a great job but it is only down to political will it is not down to the design of the B2's that have magically opened up the ports of the indo-Pacific

I don't want to trivialise the great work of the B2's and the importance of these visits but it was a political choice to withdraw from EoS we could of kept say 3 x T-21's EoS they could or would have carried out many of these visits years ago

It is exactly down to the design why the B2 are being a great success. They are cheap and with their shallow draft / size can visit ports larger ships can’t.

I agree that these many "first in decades" visit is enable because it is River OPVs. But, I do NOT think it is because of "shallower draft". Most of the Merchant vessels has larger draft than T22/T42/T22, which were sent to far east for FPDA deployment, a standing task (for a half an year) before 2010. And, all ports of visit of these OPVs, to my knowledge, are used by these merchant vessels? Only the port of Andaman islands may differ, but not sure.

I understand it is because of its high availability. RN is now operating 2 ships in the region. And these two ships are famous for having the highest designed sea-going days per year. Operating 2 OPVs is, of course, much much cheaper than operating a frigate there. And, two OPVs can steam and visit many places, of course, more than twice of that of an escort, may be 3-4 times more.

"3-4 times more availability" means they can visit "lower priority" ports. And I think this is the reason for many ""first in decades visit".

Spey and Tamar have done a great job in (re)building relationships with many nations and many navies, taking part in bilataral / multi-national exercises (i.e. NOT just cocktail parties).

And I think that rather than being seen as "gunboat diplomacy" (which the RN indulged in the pacific in late 19th century) if th had sent a dedicated warships such as a Destroyer or Frigate), having an OPV carry out these misions has enabled soft power, the (re) building of contacts and alliances that will hopefully bear fruit in future.

Especially with the increase in Chinese power, both military (through the growth of PLAN oceangoing fleet), and economic (through the belt and road initiative etc), it is important for us to mitigate against that growing Chinese influence and try to keep nations positively inclined to UK interests.

If anything I think we need to expand such a soft power diplomatic missions by in time using the other River B2s to do a smilar role with nations and navies of Africa and south and central America. Thus when the T31s join RN active sercice, they can be used more as warships (e.g. Operation Kipion etc). I don't think it should be a choice of T31 OR River B2, I think using both together in different roles that they are each optimised for.

[SW1]

Let’s take the Cambodia visit what to do you think will build relationships more?

that the river vessel visited ream naval base as opposed to other warships which dock across the bay in the large container port or the fact that the Chinese have agreed with the Cambodian government to completely rebuild and expand the whole lot?

As the old adage goes in Africa when the Chinese visit they build a hospital when the Europeans visit they give us a lecture on human rights.

Turning up occasionally with a opv for a party is not a strategy that will counter anything other than waste money.

[wargame_insomniac]

It’s not an either / or. RN visits should be complementary with a broader strategy.

Also, sure you can park a larger frigate further off shore and send a helicopter. Two points, one given we haven’t done it for years, unlikely we can afford frigates and helicopters to cover the same ground. Second, it will not give the same effect - docking and being visible has value.

[tomuk]

It’s not an either / or. RN visits should be complementary with a broader strategy.

Also, sure you can park a larger frigate further off shore and send a helicopter. Two points, one given we haven’t done it for years, unlikely we can afford frigates and helicopters to cover the same ground. Second, it will not give the same effect - docking and being visible has value.

River B2 has a 4.4m draught, the Iver Huitfeldt with its weapons and radar fit has a draught of 5.3m, of all the port calls made on the current deployment I would guess there aren't many ports that a T31 couldn't have docked at too.