River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Lord Jim wrote: 16 May 2022, 19:46 The more I see of how and where our River Class are operating the more I think we should buy a Batch 3 t replace the original Batch 1s. Given their roles in HADR and anti piracy etc., I think these new Rivers should be partially paid for form the Overseas Aid Budget, especially regarding the help they can give to the multitude of Island Nations we already support.
The example that come to mind is the French ordering half a dozen POM OPV intended for patrolling the French Overseas Territories. The ships are 1300 t and two ships apiece wlil be based in Reunion, French Polynesia and New Caledonia.

I believe I have read elsewhere that these are being at least part funded by French foriegn office.

Initially I wanted River Batch 3's to replace the B1's, ideally uparmed with either 57mm or 40mm main gun, a couple of smaller secondary guns and an enclosed hangar for Helicopters or UAV.

But even if the B3's were deployed east of Suez to the Indo Pacific and Persian Gulf, with B2's to be redeployed to UK waters to replace the B1's, I have realised that larger, upgunned B3's would be overkill and require too many crew for the additional weapons / systems.

The reason my opinion changed is firstly that role east of Suez would be covered by the T31 Frigates. And secondly that I have realised quite how tight the RN crew availability is. As per previous discussions on the early retirements of Trenchant and Shoreham and the upcoming early retirements of Montrose and Argus. Also thirdly the news that B1's were too large to pick up migrants in the English Channel without using RRB.

Hence my realisation that we need new ships smaller than B1's, especially if the minehunters are also being retired early. So a RN equivalent of French POM, in the 1200 - 1500 t size range.

And agree that if we are using them to patrol the British Overseas Territories, then purchase cost and annual maintenance should at least partly come from Foriegn Office e.g.the Overseas Aid budget.

Have mentioned before in this thread we have six separate Island BOT's in the Carribean, five separate groups of island BOT's in South Atlantic plus also the Pacific. Many of these islands have attached Blue Belt maritime environmental reserves. So as well as patrolling and fishery protection there would also be the need for environmental surveillance and information gathering.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ench-navy/
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 16 May 2022, 20:29...I have realised that larger, upgunned B3's would be overkill and require too many crew for the additional weapons / systems.

The reason my opinion changed is firstly that role east of Suez would be covered by the T31 Frigates. And secondly that I have realised quite how tight the RN crew availability is.
...
Hence my realisation that we need new ships smaller than B1's, especially if the minehunters are also being retired early. So a RN equivalent of French POM, in the 1200 - 1500 t size range...
Interesting and sensible proposal.

If the money AND man-power is NOT there, I think another option is to,
- just accept 3 River B1s are there to compensate some T23s in LIFEX and 2 T23 GP decommissioning early,
- so that when the 2nd T31 comes in, all River B1 will be gone.

The two T31s will replace the 2 River B2, which in turn will replace 2 River B1s. Training ship role (3rd River B1) could be covered by some cheaper ship. This will result in "less hull" on paper, but in reality, nothing is lost, anyway.

Note I am afraid of the full-crew needed from 2025 onward, to man the 1st T26 and T31 in trial. Even those these two frigates won't be "in service", they will require full-set of crew from around 2024. From where they are coming?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I had initially thought higher RN recruitment was needed in the medium term but have only just recently realised how tight current staffing is with the early retirements of couple of ships offset by Somerset finishing LIFEX and undergoing FOST. We still have 3 remaining T23's in LIFEX and first T45 in PIP - that means we are going to need four additional ships crewed over the next year or so, one of which to be covered by Montrose's early retirement, still leaving three ships to be crewed.

And then as you have said when the first T26 & T31 hit the water then we will need yet more crews..... I hope the MOD are coming with a catchy new recruitmnt ad and I hope the RN does better in retaining their experienced trained crew.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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One thing recent event have shown if that the personnle levels in the Royal NAvy is too low and the same can be said for the Army. THis needs to be resolved urgently, as well as expanding the Royal Navy;s reserves.

The reason I proposed a B3 River is that the current B2s are just so useful. Having two In Gibraltar for a start one in the Falklands and one in the Caribbean with one undergoing maintenance. Make the B3s more modular could be an option but I do not think they would need to be up gunned. twenty odd Royal Marines would be its main punch, especially if thy had two or three Javelins and a couple of Starstreak/LMM Launchers with the latter missile. Of course they wouldn't always have to have these with them but I would ensure that each ship was fitted with two M2 .50cal mounts in addition to the 30mm and two 7.62mm Miniguns, as some B2 are currently equipped.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Is the River Class the UK's equivalent to coast guard cutters? I was surprised that neither the UK nor France had a militarized coast guard.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

France has Maritime Gendarmerie forces in addition to 14 OPV/large patrol boats, and the 6 Floreal class surveillance frigate.

UK also has some patrol vessels;
- 3 Scotich fishery patrol vessels,
- a few small Wales Fisheries boats,
- and UK boarder force.
- combined with RN 3+5 OPVs and some Archer class patrol boats (most of the 16 hulls are not for patrol, but for reserve training), and two fast boats at Gib.

But both are not so large as "typical" coast guard of US, Japan, and India.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Why not create a US style coast guard under the Home Office that would be in charge of maritime law enforcement?
It could be funded from the Home Office which would free up money and personel for the Navy and allow the Navy to focus on more high level threats. Besides having a civilian agency in charge of law enforcement would be better. After all you don't use the army to do policing work on land. Picking up migrants from the channel or dealing with drug smugglers at sea are tasks more suited to an agency under the Home Office than a navy.

The fact that the US coast guard can afford eleven 4,500 ton Legend-class cutters at $700m a ship that would be frigates in many navies is ridiculous. The US coast guard alone would be one of the most powerful navies in the world if they were up-armed a bit.
The Japanese and Chinese coast guards have even larger coast guard vessels ( up to 10,000 tons) for some reason. I seriously wonder what they intend to use those for!
India by comparison only has much more modest 2,000 ton OPVs that are armed with only a 30 mm gun.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Creating a UK coast guard will only take money away from the RN reducing the number of hulls, impacting training and command opportunities and what’s more leave a gap where the current OPVs fulfil escort duties for foreign warships sailing through the EEZ and surveillance.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse wrote: 19 May 2022, 18:53 Creating a UK coast guard will only take money away from the RN reducing the number of hulls, impacting training and command opportunities and what’s more leave a gap where the current OPVs fulfil escort duties for foreign warships sailing through the EEZ and surveillance.
I think it depends on what type of coast guard is built, a solo civilian one could cause what you’ve said above but a para military one like the USCG could do those EEZ escorts.

As for money being taken away from the RN I think it’d be very hard to justify, to me it’d be better for it to be built via combining several existing agencies to avoid duplication of roles and have them take care of all maritime security and protection roles with in the EEZ.

Training and progression in the RN could be filled via the mcm replacement going back to MHCP like a black swan or Venari 95, this along with a capable archers replacement like the Mk6 Patrol Boat should fill any gap left by the RB2 in said roles.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... nt-wildcat

“…launching commando raids.” - good to see that this is being considered.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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We do have a civilian coastguard... the RNLI

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Welcome back on twitter, HMS Medway! Was silent from March, has restarted its activity. Now playing with Mexican navy. Image (from mobile.twitter.com/HMS_Medway/status/1527046572357390337 )
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Forth in San Carlos.

I cannot explain why, but for me, a gray ship in, gray and cold weather, remote and little-populated district, attracts me a lot.


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Beautiful shot of HMS Forth (from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1529721496188379136)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Another impressive shot from HMS tamar twitter....
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Medwway preparing for HADR tasks.

Look, she carries All terrine vehicle, so can do amphibious operations? :D

(Not sure how she gonna land it. Of course from port, but can a rigid radar be used there? )

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I really do like the naval camo schemes on these ships, They given tam a sort of aura that going dejond the sum of their parts, and difficult to describe but it is there.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Following Tamar, HMS Spey is now also back at work.


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Compared to River B2s, River B1 OPVs are more simple. Looking at the detail,
- radar is much simple
- com-link is also simpler
- EO FCS is not there
- much less armed
which means River B1s is surely cheaper than B2s to operate.

I understand RN is to replace 3 River B1s with 2 River B2s (now at EoS) around 2025. This is reasonable because two new frigates (T26 hull-1 and T31 hull-1) are flying white ensign (although not "in service") from 2025 with full crews.

But, I cannot stop thinking of adding two simpler 80-m class OPVs as a direct replacement for 2 of the 3 River B1s (another one is used for training). Simple is the key here.

- Let 1 River B2 used for training, but with simple CMS, it can do more advanced training, relieving frigate from such basic training courses?
- Also, keep another River B2 for "long-maintenance", so that the remaining 3 River B2s (FIGS, WIGS and GibGS) can be "always fully active".

Just a thought.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Jun 2022, 15:49 Compared to River B2s, River B1 OPVs are more simple. Looking at the detail,
- radar is much simple
- com-link is also simpler
- EO FCS is not there
- much less armed
which means River B1s is surely cheaper than B2s to operate.

I understand RN is to replace 3 River B1s with 2 River B2s (now at EoS) around 2025. This is reasonable because two new frigates (T26 hull-1 and T31 hull-1) are flying white ensign (although not "in service") from 2025 with full crews.

But, I cannot stop thinking of adding two simpler 80-m class OPVs as a direct replacement for 2 of the 3 River B1s (another one is used for training). Simple is the key here.

- Let 1 River B2 used for training, but with simple CMS, it can do more advanced training, relieving frigate from such basic training courses?
- Also, keep another River B2 for "long-maintenance", so that the remaining 3 River B2s (FIGS, WIGS and GibGS) can be "always fully active".

Just a thought.

Image
I agree. My opinion on the OPV has changed 180 degrees. Initially i compard them to similar sized corvetts built for other navies, including ons that were even based on River class themselves, and just thought of as chronically undergunned. I still beleive that a couple of the River B2's, specifically Spey and Tamar, could do with some (more limited) weapon upgrades if they are to continue to serve EoS.

I realise that for where the other 3 River B2's are based, and the missions that they are completing for RN thus releasing the limited number of RN Frigates for more important tasks, they are fine as they are.

With regards the River B1's, I am not sure what their intended retirement date is or whether they have become more expensive to run in recent years. I certainly would leave them upgrade free and leave them doing their exisiting tasks for as long as their annual running costs remain low. I did find it interesting that RN foud them to be too large when asked to police the migrants crossing the channel tunnel. Leaving aside the politics, and for the record I do NOT think that RN should be doing that anyway, it did make me think about what we should replace the River B1;s with.

My opinion has thus changed over time. Whereas before I wanted them to become effecively light frigate with additional weapons and helicopter hangar (and thus need to be larger), I now agree that for the basic of policing of our maritime EEZ both home and overseas, we need more smaller but cheaper vessels. Rather than looking to them to carry helicopters we should be using them to carry UAV's instead for cheaper patrol, reconnaissance and policing. For armanent 20mm or even 12.7mm should suffice.

That (cheaper simpler OPV) would hopefully leave more resources, both initial acquisition cost and subsequent annual running costs, not to mention crew required, to be able to be used on RN's higher intensity warfighting escorts.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Personally, I still fail to see the logic in letting HMS Clyde go. Whilst the River class has its limitations, it has enabled a level of global engagement whilst allowing the escort fleet to be transformed and prioritised. I do not see this changing when the T26s/T31s are delivered, and would argue 8 large OPVs/Sloops remains the minimum sized force required. My view is still to build 3 OPV replacements and ensure the T26s/T31s are properly equipped before building more cheap T32s.

What I would add though is that there is an opportunity to build a smaller and simpler Multirole platform, not only for patrol but as as a MCM / Survey off board system mothership, and even as a small platform for FCF littoral operations.

The new @50m/500-tonne ‘Special Purpose Vessel’ will be interesting to see as this in my view could be built cheaply in numbers and support a number of the fisheries / EEZ patrol roles currently performed by the B1s in the channel, North Sea and Irish Sea.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I think we should also look at rationalising the number of Agencies operating in the Maritime environment such as Fisheries, Coastguard, Border and Customs and so on. Producing a cheapish multi role platform should be the way forward, with crews made up from various agencies to cover the various jurisdictions dependant on the role being undertaken at any one time.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I would say building 10 patrol boats something like the 62 meter Stan 6211 4 for the RN and 6 for Boarder force fit the RN boats with RWS 12.7 mm and 2 x GPMG

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Medway at Curacao. "Visit the world", looks like.

Back in the photo, we can see a Damen Stan Patrol 4207 patrol craft, HNLMS Pelikaan (a logistic support vessel), and an SSK.

Image

see twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1535889460935655425

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