River Class (OPV) (RN)
- Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
<img src="https://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.co ... _1131b.jpg" alt="sam_1131b.jpg (846Ã1127)"/>
Now what I would like to see is our B2 Rivers fitted with two of these on the wing points plus a 57 or 40mm main gun
Now what I would like to see is our B2 Rivers fitted with two of these on the wing points plus a 57 or 40mm main gun
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- Repulse • Dahedd • wargame_insomniac
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Tempest414 wrote: ↑13 Jan 2023, 12:01 <img src="https://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.co ... _1131b.jpg" alt="sam_1131b.jpg (846Ã1127)"/>
Now what I would like to see is our B2 Rivers fitted with two of these on the wing points plus a 57 or 40mm main gun
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Again proving their diplomatic value
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”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
- Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Many thanks yes 2 of these fitted on the wing points would give the B2's 16 ready rounds plus they could carry 16 more giving them 32 Missiles plus a 57mm or 40mm and a Camcopter this would not effect there day to day but would increase there defence 100 fold on there global duties. we could also add 10 Hero 120 loiter weapons that could give them a 60+ km OTH strike option again these can be kept in the ships mag and launched from the flight deck as needed not effecting the ships day to dayRon5 wrote: ↑13 Jan 2023, 13:41Tempest414 wrote: ↑13 Jan 2023, 12:01 <img src="https://defesaglobal.files.wordpress.co ... _1131b.jpg" alt="sam_1131b.jpg (846Ã1127)"/>
Now what I would like to see is our B2 Rivers fitted with two of these on the wing points plus a 57 or 40mm main gun
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
And some more diplomacy from our agents out east.
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”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
What policy has been altered implemented what gain for U.K. plc has the greet and go achieved or planned to achieve?
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
They’ve only just arrived
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Love to see a T31 or T26 in that color scheme complete with appropriate red emblem (is that the right word?).
For example, HMS Glasgow could have a broken beer bottle
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Moved across from T31 thread...
1: I understand you are proposing to replace the 30 mm with 40mm (item-A).
But, are you also proposing to replace "2x 7.62mm miniGun and 4-6x 7.62mm" with "2x 8xLMM turret" (item-B) ? Or are you proposing adding "2x 8xLMM turret" to to small guns?
I was commenting assuming the latter, and hence needs good number of sailors are needed to be added. (say, item-A will add 2-3 more crew, and item-B will add 3-4 more).
2: In addition, I think if such heavily armed and to be used in "more" harm way, the damage control of River B2 shall be improved, and 10~20% more sailors will be needed, independent from item-1.
As a result, 5-7 more sailors will be needed for item-1. In addition, item-2 may require 4-8 more. (item-1 and 2 is independent discussion)
3: And here I assume whatever the number of the River B2 crew now (35 or 45), they are all already busy and cannot handle "additional" tasks. I know they clearly stated that all crew are multi-tasked (if my memory works, in some movie of River B2, the crew are saying so because the crew-size is small). And I guess the total number of crew onboard is what is really needed, no redundancy.
For example, I understand, when the EO/FCS maintainer is "free" because he/she has no such work for another week, I'm sure he/she is not enjoying the life as a passenger but busy doing other tasks elsewhere.
Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:03the 40mm and LMM mounts can be operated by 1 man each = 3 from the ops room and the Crew is 45 for a B2donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 11:5560/1.5 = 40. Not much different from 36.Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 11:42 The B2's have a crew of 45 ( 60 with 1.5 ) plus a platoon of RM
And, "a platoon of RM" is not always onboard. You can see in many twitter images. HMS Forth does (army), HMS Medway carries several for HDHR in summer, HMS Trent "sometimes" carries marines, and HMS Tamar and Spey, I've never seen them? No always.
But, if you include the 50-more soldiers as her crew, yes, adding two 8xLMM turret is doable, no objection. Note that, the moment they disembark, the OPV will lose its capability to operate LMMs. For me, carrying 3x LMM turret operated by them will be a good "add-on" in a bit higher threat region. After landing, the 3x LMM turret can be also landed with the soldiers for their air-defense. Not bad.Yes, I knew it. And I think it is to "enable" smaller crew. That's it.Quote
The Batch 2 ships for the Royal Navy include some 29 modifications and enhancements over the Amazonas-class corvette built by BAE Systems for the Brazilian Navy.[35] The Royal Navy ships are built to more stringent naval standards, with features such as magazine protection, improved hull integrity and fire safety modifications, as well as greater redundancy.
the current 30mm and small arms take 6 all stood outside in harms way
Let's make it clear....Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 17:03Yes the 30mm can be controlled but the small arms points still need manning so six crew needed to defend the shipBB85 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 13:16 Is the current 30mm cannon not remotely operated? I know they have a chair and control panel attached to the side, but I'm sure I have seen them swivel and conduct test firings with an empty chair on online video's.
Some of the newer guns don't even have the chair at all, but that doesn't mean the older cannon needs to be manned at all times.
1: I understand you are proposing to replace the 30 mm with 40mm (item-A).
But, are you also proposing to replace "2x 7.62mm miniGun and 4-6x 7.62mm" with "2x 8xLMM turret" (item-B) ? Or are you proposing adding "2x 8xLMM turret" to to small guns?
I was commenting assuming the latter, and hence needs good number of sailors are needed to be added. (say, item-A will add 2-3 more crew, and item-B will add 3-4 more).
2: In addition, I think if such heavily armed and to be used in "more" harm way, the damage control of River B2 shall be improved, and 10~20% more sailors will be needed, independent from item-1.
As a result, 5-7 more sailors will be needed for item-1. In addition, item-2 may require 4-8 more. (item-1 and 2 is independent discussion)
3: And here I assume whatever the number of the River B2 crew now (35 or 45), they are all already busy and cannot handle "additional" tasks. I know they clearly stated that all crew are multi-tasked (if my memory works, in some movie of River B2, the crew are saying so because the crew-size is small). And I guess the total number of crew onboard is what is really needed, no redundancy.
For example, I understand, when the EO/FCS maintainer is "free" because he/she has no such work for another week, I'm sure he/she is not enjoying the life as a passenger but busy doing other tasks elsewhere.
- Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Lets be very very clear all RN ships including the B2's have crew redundancy due to injury and sickness and all crews multi-task it the nature of life at seadonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 01:21 Moved across from T31 thread...Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 12:03the 40mm and LMM mounts can be operated by 1 man each = 3 from the ops room and the Crew is 45 for a B2donald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 11:5560/1.5 = 40. Not much different from 36.Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 11:42 The B2's have a crew of 45 ( 60 with 1.5 ) plus a platoon of RM
And, "a platoon of RM" is not always onboard. You can see in many twitter images. HMS Forth does (army), HMS Medway carries several for HDHR in summer, HMS Trent "sometimes" carries marines, and HMS Tamar and Spey, I've never seen them? No always.
But, if you include the 50-more soldiers as her crew, yes, adding two 8xLMM turret is doable, no objection. Note that, the moment they disembark, the OPV will lose its capability to operate LMMs. For me, carrying 3x LMM turret operated by them will be a good "add-on" in a bit higher threat region. After landing, the 3x LMM turret can be also landed with the soldiers for their air-defense. Not bad.Yes, I knew it. And I think it is to "enable" smaller crew. That's it.Quote
The Batch 2 ships for the Royal Navy include some 29 modifications and enhancements over the Amazonas-class corvette built by BAE Systems for the Brazilian Navy.[35] The Royal Navy ships are built to more stringent naval standards, with features such as magazine protection, improved hull integrity and fire safety modifications, as well as greater redundancy.
the current 30mm and small arms take 6 all stood outside in harms wayLet's make it clear....Tempest414 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 17:03Yes the 30mm can be controlled but the small arms points still need manning so six crew needed to defend the shipBB85 wrote: ↑17 Jan 2023, 13:16 Is the current 30mm cannon not remotely operated? I know they have a chair and control panel attached to the side, but I'm sure I have seen them swivel and conduct test firings with an empty chair on online video's.
Some of the newer guns don't even have the chair at all, but that doesn't mean the older cannon needs to be manned at all times.
1: I understand you are proposing to replace the 30 mm with 40mm (item-A).
But, are you also proposing to replace "2x 7.62mm miniGun and 4-6x 7.62mm" with "2x 8xLMM turret" (item-B) ? Or are you proposing adding "2x 8xLMM turret" to to small guns?
I was commenting assuming the latter, and hence needs good number of sailors are needed to be added. (say, item-A will add 2-3 more crew, and item-B will add 3-4 more).
2: In addition, I think if such heavily armed and to be used in "more" harm way, the damage control of River B2 shall be improved, and 10~20% more sailors will be needed, independent from item-1.
As a result, 5-7 more sailors will be needed for item-1. In addition, item-2 may require 4-8 more. (item-1 and 2 is independent discussion)
3: And here I assume whatever the number of the River B2 crew now (35 or 45), they are all already busy and cannot handle "additional" tasks. I know they clearly stated that all crew are multi-tasked (if my memory works, in some movie of River B2, the crew are saying so because the crew-size is small). And I guess the total number of crew onboard is what is really needed, no redundancy.
For example, I understand, when the EO/FCS maintainer is "free" because he/she has no such work for another week, I'm sure he/she is not enjoying the life as a passenger but busy doing other tasks elsewhere.
Again to be very very clear my armament would be 1 x 40mm , 2 x 8 round LMM , 3 x 12.7mm and I have NOintention of knowingly sending them in to harms way however in this new world were 1st gen anit ship missiles and drones like the Shahed 136 are becoming more and more seen in grey zones for me due to there overseas roles they need this new level of defence
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Thanks a lot. Making things clear make it much easier to discuss.
[EDIT] In this case, it is just a comparison of man-power needed for 7.62mm miniGuns vs 8xLMM turrets. This is not clear (gatling gun is not a simple mechanics).
On the other hand, it look like you think LMMs is better in handling gray-zone tasks than 7.62mm miniGuns. I have a different opinion. 7.62mm miniGuns will be better in many cases. It can do good warning shots, while not so much for LMM. Of course, the main gun (30/40 mm) can also do it, but 7.62 mm gun is the main weapon in "much more closer" encounter = when it is difficult to identify a stupid-but-peaceful-fishermen against professional-terrorists.
But I do agree there will be some theater (like Red Sea) LMMs/StarStreak would be useful and thus I think adding 3xLMM portable turret be better option (not replacing the miniGuns). Of course, this needs more crew.
For example, (I "guess" you will agree) additional crew cannot be avoided when you add 6-8x 8xLMM turrets to a T31 GP frigate. And this is just a x3.3 scaled number for your River B2 8xLMM turret proposal. Also note that an OPV shall have even LESS redundancy ratio than a GP frigate.
So you are proposing to replace 2x 7.62 mm miniGun with 2x 8xLMM turrets. Interesting (for me 7.62 mm miniGun is the main weapon on OPVs).Tempest414 wrote: ↑18 Jan 2023, 09:13 ...Again to be very very clear my armament would be 1 x 40mm , 2 x 8 round LMM , 3 x 12.7mm...
[EDIT] In this case, it is just a comparison of man-power needed for 7.62mm miniGuns vs 8xLMM turrets. This is not clear (gatling gun is not a simple mechanics).
Understood. So here we had difference. I was thinking that such an up-armed River B2 shall be treated to be facing more threat, and thus shall be upgraded in damage control than they currently are. We just differ here...I have NOintention of knowingly sending them in to harms way however in this new world were 1st gen anit ship missiles and drones like the Shahed 136 are becoming more and more seen in grey zones for me due to there overseas roles they need this new level of defence
On the other hand, it look like you think LMMs is better in handling gray-zone tasks than 7.62mm miniGuns. I have a different opinion. 7.62mm miniGuns will be better in many cases. It can do good warning shots, while not so much for LMM. Of course, the main gun (30/40 mm) can also do it, but 7.62 mm gun is the main weapon in "much more closer" encounter = when it is difficult to identify a stupid-but-peaceful-fishermen against professional-terrorists.
But I do agree there will be some theater (like Red Sea) LMMs/StarStreak would be useful and thus I think adding 3xLMM portable turret be better option (not replacing the miniGuns). Of course, this needs more crew.
Thanks. I know. And I think that (it is very very clear that) "crew redundancy" is always needed. If you add two 8xLMM turrets, you add tasks but you need to keep the redundancy. And thus you need to add your crew. I think this is a very simple argument.Lets be very very clear all RN ships including the B2's have crew redundancy due to injury and sickness and all crews multi-task it the nature of life at sea
For example, (I "guess" you will agree) additional crew cannot be avoided when you add 6-8x 8xLMM turrets to a T31 GP frigate. And this is just a x3.3 scaled number for your River B2 8xLMM turret proposal. Also note that an OPV shall have even LESS redundancy ratio than a GP frigate.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
HMS Trent's low activeness looks like because of some malfunction. Hope she over come it soon.
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Wonder if the crane is strong enough to lift the interceptor onboard?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
I guess yes. It looks like smaller than CB90, which is ~25t. River B2 crane can handle 16tonnes.
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Interesting, I thought would be forward maintained in the FI. More significant work planned?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Looks like no UK military vessels are around Caribbean? HMS Scott?
HMS Forth has been at Falkland island from Jan 2020. It is "just" 3 years. No surprising to have a maintenance/inspection period, but, yes I agree interesting to see it is not taken on site. RN did not continue the "on site maintenance" contract, or simply downgraded it limiting to "not heavy maintenance" to save money?
At these days, there were only HMS Clyde. In deep maintenance, HMS Echo/Enterprise was sent in place. As there are 5 River B2s now, "rotation" might be logical it could be. Any info?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
HMS Spey. Continuing her job tirelessly. Very high activity = longer sea going days.
Clear example of "being simple has its own strong merit", because it can be used more intensely. Of course, escorts need to be complex to fight. So, combining these two types of assets is a very good approach.
Clear example of "being simple has its own strong merit", because it can be used more intensely. Of course, escorts need to be complex to fight. So, combining these two types of assets is a very good approach.
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- Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
How many days do they spend at sea and in port. It seems to me they spending a lot of time in different ports something like 10 to 15 days at sea followed by a 4 to 5 day port visit each timedonald_of_tokyo wrote: ↑07 Feb 2023, 13:22 HMS Spey. Continuing her job tirelessly. Very high activity = longer sea going days.
Clear example of "being simple has its own strong merit", because it can be used more intensely. Of course, escorts need to be complex to fight. So, combining these two types of assets is a very good approach.
Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
Hopefully river class will get it aswell
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
The RN is getting one. How useful it will be will depend on the role it’s intended for, I’d say for the Gulf it’s ok and better than ScanEagle. I’d also say that it would be a good addition to the B2 Rivers in their current patrol role in regions where other UK air assets are limited.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
IMO this actually quite embarrassing for the UK.
Why are all of the RB2s not getting this system?
Why not have 8 to 10 units to spread across the escorts, amphibious and OPV’s.
What if this single UAS gets damaged or lost?
It a sad state of affairs that this is the best that RN can do.
- Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)
To be clear one system comes with 2 air vehicles a control station and logistics packagePoiuytrewq wrote: ↑11 Feb 2023, 09:09IMO this actually quite embarrassing for the UK.
Why are all of the RB2s not getting this system?
Why not have 8 to 10 units to spread across the escorts, amphibious and OPV’s.
What if this single UAS gets damaged or lost?
It a sad state of affairs that this is the best that RN can do.
As said before 100 million could buy 30 full systems i.e 60 UAS's
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