River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Camcopter is not the only "future".

French navy is operating 11-sets of SMDM, with two Aliaca UAVs each. It costs 19.7M Euros for the 11 sets.

The Aliaca UAV has "up to 3 hours missions over a 50 km (27 Nm) range". "Launched by catapult, the Aliaca maritime UAS concludes its flight by landing automatically using a dedicated net landing solution. With a length of 2,2m and a wingspan of 3,6m for a maximum take-off weight of 16 kg, the Aliaca maritime UAS benefits from a powerful yet silent electric motor. The system can be deployed easily and rapidly in less than 15 minutes by 2 operators only"

I think, for OPVs, these assets are far better than Camcopter. Note that Camcopter S-100 has a maximum take-off weight of 200 kg, 12.5 times heavier and because of helicopter-shape, it is even more complex. They are completely different class.

For example, C-130J is only 9-times heavier than BN-2 Defender. Typhoon is only 3 times heavier than BAE Hawk. Difference between Camcopter and Aliaca UAVs are larger than these two examples.

Actually, RN operates RQ-20B Puma e-UAV, which is 6 kg in weight. Difference between Puma and Aliaca UAVs is only a factor of 2.6.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ench-navy/

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

That’s true 2 UAVs with each package, though obviously can only operate from one location.

I think it’s a no brainier to get another 6+3 packages to equip the B2 OPVs + HMS Protector, with additional training/reserve units. It will significantly increase the current capability set.

I also agree with the need in the Gulf, with its complex / busy sea routes and the need for sustained surveillance, at least in the short term this will help fill a significant gap.

Not sure of the value about expanding this type of simple surveillance UAV to auxiliaries, amphibious and the broader escort fleet. Typically these will be operating as part of a CSG or in areas with more capable land based a/c.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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For me Camcopter is a great starting point for the OPV's with each ship carrying 1 full system with one vehicle fitted with I-master radar this would allow 5 hours of patrol time and up to 4000km/2 to be searched the second one could fitted with a IR/EO turret to give Overwatch of boarding operations to ships command

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:02 For me Camcopter is a great starting point for the OPV's with each ship carrying 1 full system with one vehicle fitted with I-master radar this would allow 5 hours of patrol time and up to 4000km/2 to be searched the second one could fitted with a IR/EO turret to give Overwatch of boarding operations to ships command
Sounds great but this needs expanded asap.

How safe are any RN/RFA vessels going to be anywhere in the world over the next few years?

Tensions are only going to ratchet up from here.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:02 For me Camcopter is a great starting point for the OPV's with each ship carrying 1 full system with one vehicle fitted with I-master radar this would allow 5 hours of patrol time and up to 4000km/2 to be searched the second one could fitted with a IR/EO turret to give Overwatch of boarding operations to ships command
But, most of the River OPVs tasks does NOT need I-MASTER radar and data-link. Better served with eUAS Puma, and/or land-based air cover.

Camcopter is not cheap. RAN is going to operate 40 air frames (may be 20 sets?) with US$1Bn ~ £800M (maybe including operation costs for years). If we assume about a half is procurement, "£400 for 40 airframes" means "£20M for 2 airframes". So, not much different from a Wildcat (~£27M). 2 Camcopter is much better than 1 Wildcat in operational continuity. So it does not mean it is bad. But still it is NOT cheap. RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:48 RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
HMG have always said “if the threat level increases, the defence budget increases.”

That time is now.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:48
Tempest414 wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:02 For me Camcopter is a great starting point for the OPV's with each ship carrying 1 full system with one vehicle fitted with I-master radar this would allow 5 hours of patrol time and up to 4000km/2 to be searched the second one could fitted with a IR/EO turret to give Overwatch of boarding operations to ships command
But, most of the River OPVs tasks does NOT need I-MASTER radar and data-link. Better served with eUAS Puma, and/or land-based air cover.

Camcopter is not cheap. RAN is going to operate 40 air frames (may be 20 sets?) with US$1Bn ~ £800M (maybe including operation costs for years). If we assume about a half is procurement, "£400 for 40 airframes" means "£20M for 2 airframes". So, not much different from a Wildcat (~£27M). 2 Camcopter is much better than 1 Wildcat in operational continuity. So it does not mean it is bad. But still it is NOT cheap. RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
Interesting as we know the set cost of a Camcopter full system ( 2 vehicles 1 ground station ground equipment and training ) is 3.3 million dollars US so maybe the 1 Billion is Life time program cost

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 13:05
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:48 RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
HMG have always said “if the threat level increases, the defence budget increases.”

That time is now.
Doesn't matter. If the money is there, RN must operate what is "needed", not just "better to have". Even more when the money is there and every options can be considered. By doing so, MOD can improve the capability better.

(If no money, RN would be forced to operate Wildcat for patrol, because they cannot buy UAVs, and will waste a lot of money and man-power there. In reality, they will just NOT do it = gap it.)

Almost no navy is using military-grade helicopter with good sensor kits (like Wildcat and Merlin) for fishery protection. The same applies to UAVs. I do think there are some tasks River OPV might need Camcopter. But, I think Campcopter with I-Master radar is a very good fit for T23GP (and future T31GP) frigates, rather than (most of the tasks of) OPVs.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Forth is in maintenance until later this year, and Medway is filling the gap until then.

Q1: Who is filling the gap of Medway at Caribbean ocean?
Q2: Why Forth goes to Giblartar not Cornwall?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Would be a great tour for a RB1 crew and would not be the first time a RB1 has covered this task or send a Tide class
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:48
Tempest414 wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:02 For me Camcopter is a great starting point for the OPV's with each ship carrying 1 full system with one vehicle fitted with I-master radar this would allow 5 hours of patrol time and up to 4000km/2 to be searched the second one could fitted with a IR/EO turret to give Overwatch of boarding operations to ships command
But, most of the River OPVs tasks does NOT need I-MASTER radar and data-link. Better served with eUAS Puma, and/or land-based air cover.

Camcopter is not cheap. RAN is going to operate 40 air frames (may be 20 sets?) with US$1Bn ~ £800M (maybe including operation costs for years). If we assume about a half is procurement, "£400 for 40 airframes" means "£20M for 2 airframes". So, not much different from a Wildcat (~£27M). 2 Camcopter is much better than 1 Wildcat in operational continuity. So it does not mean it is bad. But still it is NOT cheap. RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
So it looks to me that the Australian order of 40 S-100 is the block 1 order in a 3 block 1 billion US dollar program

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Ianmb17 »

Looks like BAE get some of the £20 million for integration into t23 CMS

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-lan ... ial-drone/

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 09:09
Repulse wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 08:22 The RN is getting one.
IMO this actually quite embarrassing for the UK.

Why are all of the RB2s not getting this system?

Why not have 8 to 10 units to spread across the escorts, amphibious and OPV’s.

What if this single UAS gets damaged or lost?

It a sad state of affairs that this is the best that RN can do.
The key thing I took away from the video was the integration of the Peregrine sensors into the ships Combat Management System. Presumably it is wise that they have to test it in practice on ONE ship before a wider roll out?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ianmb17 wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 15:51 Looks like BAE get some of the £20 million for integration into t23 CMS
Yes. As the CMS of River B2 is the same (just very small version), it "might" be also possible to integrate Camcopter into River B2 OPVs system. But, it might NOT be. Datalink antenna is needed, and data-handling requires good analysis power. Let's see how it goes...

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 14:03
Poiuytrewq wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 13:05
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 11 Feb 2023, 12:48 RN must carefully plan the program not to eat-out the money which must be used to procure F35B or E-7.
HMG have always said “if the threat level increases, the defence budget increases.”

That time is now.
Doesn't matter. If the money is there, RN must operate what is "needed", not just "better to have". Even more when the money is there and every options can be considered. By doing so, MOD can improve the capability better.

(If no money, RN would be forced to operate Wildcat for patrol, because they cannot buy UAVs, and will waste a lot of money and man-power there. In reality, they will just NOT do it = gap it.)

Almost no navy is using military-grade helicopter with good sensor kits (like Wildcat and Merlin) for fishery protection. The same applies to UAVs. I do think there are some tasks River OPV might need Camcopter. But, I think Campcopter with I-Master radar is a very good fit for T23GP (and future T31GP) frigates, rather than (most of the tasks of) OPVs.
Addition.

Don't get me wrong, I am NOT against carrying Camcopter on River B2 OPV. I am just saying, the system is not for free. At least, buying 10-sets of Camcopter-class UAV system cost as much as "adding NSMs" to T31. RN MCMV fleet sacrificed Sandowns and Hunts to be replaced with a few cheapish OSVs to introduce state of the art USV-based MCM systems.

For River B2 OPVs, adding a Camcopter could cost much more than replacing the 30mm gun with 40mm 3P (even we may add 2 triple-LMM launchers). Which do we prefer?

I think buying 10-20 sets of Camcopter (or alike) systems, to be coupled with Wildcat is logical. In place, some Wildcats might be put into extended readiness (to provide money and man-power). In this case, re-rolling some of the Camcopter systems to River B2 OPVs (when needed) will be possible. At the same time, most of the River B2's UAV-related tasks could be gaped, or be OK with Puma eUAS. The latter is really cheap, and RN do not need to sacrifice anything in place. And, it will provide sufficient capability in many cases.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price

as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 10:51 Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price
Not sure about the price, compared to recent contract. Does the "Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's" included data-link and I-MASTER radar?
as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day
No big objection. But, not sure why we need a Camcopter here (assuming it does not carry datalink nor I-MASTER, and ofcourse no LMM). How about French navy solution, as a 16 kg UAV, now fielded with POM OPVs?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:21
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 10:51 Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price
Not sure about the price, compared to recent contract. Does the "Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's" included data-link and I-MASTER radar?
as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day
No big objection. But, not sure why we need a Camcopter here (assuming it does not carry datalink nor I-MASTER, and ofcourse no LMM). How about French navy solution, as a 16 kg UAV, now fielded with POM OPVs?
Data-link yes I-Master no

The French SMDM is a good half way house between Puma and Camcopter and I agree could work well

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:37
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:21
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 10:51 Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price
Not sure about the price, compared to recent contract. Does the "Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's" included data-link and I-MASTER radar?
as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day
No big objection. But, not sure why we need a Camcopter here (assuming it does not carry datalink nor I-MASTER, and ofcourse no LMM). How about French navy solution, as a 16 kg UAV, now fielded with POM OPVs?
Data-link yes I-Master no

The French SMDM is a good half way house between Puma and Camcopter and I agree could work well
That to me is the key thing is that RN will probably be best with a mix of several differet UAVs of differing costs and capabilities for different missions.

At the top end I would like to see the Sea Guardian VSTOL being used on the Carriers, the S100 Camcopter would be great on escorts either sole deployed or to widen the sensor range of the CSG / LSG, whilst smaller cheaper drones would help the OPVs on fishery protection and anti-drug/people smuggling patrol missons.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia. By the way, what a beautiful shot. Well balanced ship, isn't it?

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1625209014484144137
Image
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Ron5 »

wargame_insomniac wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 15:42
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:37
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:21
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 10:51 Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price
Not sure about the price, compared to recent contract. Does the "Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's" included data-link and I-MASTER radar?
as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day
No big objection. But, not sure why we need a Camcopter here (assuming it does not carry datalink nor I-MASTER, and ofcourse no LMM). How about French navy solution, as a 16 kg UAV, now fielded with POM OPVs?
Data-link yes I-Master no

The French SMDM is a good half way house between Puma and Camcopter and I agree could work well
That to me is the key thing is that RN will probably be best with a mix of several differet UAVs of differing costs and capabilities for different missions.

At the top end I would like to see the Sea Guardian VSTOL being used on the Carriers, the S100 Camcopter would be great on escorts either sole deployed or to widen the sensor range of the CSG / LSG, whilst smaller cheaper drones would help the OPVs on fishery protection and anti-drug/people smuggling patrol missons.
I guarantee you will not see either the Sea Guardian or the S100 in full RN service.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 14:46 HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia. By the way, what a beautiful shot. Well balanced ship, isn't it?

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1625209014484144137
Image
I agree. VT always designed good looking warships.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Ron5 wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 15:02
wargame_insomniac wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 15:42
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:37
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 12:21
Tempest414 wrote: 13 Feb 2023, 10:51 Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's a ground station ground equipment and logistics so 5 would cost 16 million pounds the same as one set of NSM of one T-31 Puma is good but very limited which is reflected in the price
Not sure about the price, compared to recent contract. Does the "Camcopter @ $3.3 million for 2 S-100's" included data-link and I-MASTER radar?
as for the question what would I prefer a 40mm or a Camcopter system I would take the Camcopter every day
No big objection. But, not sure why we need a Camcopter here (assuming it does not carry datalink nor I-MASTER, and ofcourse no LMM). How about French navy solution, as a 16 kg UAV, now fielded with POM OPVs?
Data-link yes I-Master no

The French SMDM is a good half way house between Puma and Camcopter and I agree could work well
That to me is the key thing is that RN will probably be best with a mix of several differet UAVs of differing costs and capabilities for different missions.

At the top end I would like to see the Sea Guardian VSTOL being used on the Carriers, the S100 Camcopter would be great on escorts either sole deployed or to widen the sensor range of the CSG / LSG, whilst smaller cheaper drones would help the OPVs on fishery protection and anti-drug/people smuggling patrol missons.
I guarantee you will not see either the Sea Guardian or the S100 in full RN service.
Based on your opinion or fact? Educated guesswork or detailed knowledge??

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by tomuk »

Ron5 wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 15:03
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 14:46 HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia. By the way, what a beautiful shot. Well balanced ship, isn't it?

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1625209014484144137
Image
I agree. VT always designed good looking warships.
The River B1s that are a purely a VT design are pig ugly apart from the hull under the water line. The B2s are a lot more pleasant which I put down to the later Yarrow influence, see the various F2000 corvettes\small frigates they built.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Ron5 »

tomuk wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 23:09
Ron5 wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 15:03
donald_of_tokyo wrote: 14 Feb 2023, 14:46 HMS Spey, now visiting Cambodia. By the way, what a beautiful shot. Well balanced ship, isn't it?

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1625209014484144137
Image
I agree. VT always designed good looking warships.
The River B1s that are a purely a VT design are pig ugly apart from the hull under the water line. The B2s are a lot more pleasant which I put down to the later Yarrow influence, see the various F2000 corvettes\small frigates they built.
it's the bow on the B1s. Ugly shape but presumably easier to construct with fewer curved plates.

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