River Class (OPV) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Although HMS Medway's twitter was a bit silent, it looks like she worked hard as a WIGS. (and, very nice photo!)
HMSMedway now alongside in 🇺🇸Mayport after busy 2022 (Maintenance period in Jacksonville to follow)
* £24M drugs bust.
* Assistance to Turks & Caicos Islands after hurricane Fiona.
* Assistance to Cayman Islands after hurricane Ian.
* Community projects in Antigua.


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from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1605285626915569664
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Lovely photo, thanks for posting.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Dazzle Paint to be applied in Jacksonville? :lol:

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Medway conduct rescue operation off Angullia. See mobile.twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1611671406432948224

Beautiful photo. She carries 2 RHIBs and 2 Rubberboats on top of the two 20ft-ISO containers.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Gorgeous photo - thanks Donald-san

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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A personal proposal:

Royal Thailand navy's Ratanakosin-class corvette, HTMS Sukhothai sunk late last year. Tragic event, resulting in 28 lost/missed.

But, looking at the future, as she was used as a flagship for fast attack crafts squadron, they need another ship to cover the task.

One solution is buying used ships. For examaple, Korean Pohang-class corvette may be an option, purchase two of them to replace the sunken and remaining Ratanakosin-class corvettes.

But, from logistical point of view, adding a "ship of classes under construction" will be another good solution. Thailand navy currently has two such classes.
- Korean built Bhumibol Adulyadej class frigate (1st ship delivered from Korea in 2019, and 2nd ship planned to be built in Thai shipyards but postponed)
- River B2 OPV (Krabi class). Two ship built in Thailand, with BAES support.
Among them, Krabi-class OPV is more similar in capability, size and cost, to the Ratanakosin-class.

Then, to improve the relationship with UK, how about selling HMS Tamar NOW to Thailand? Up-arming shall be done at Bangkock, under BAES support. She will directly replace the sunken hull. Thailand navy can build 3rd Krabi-class to replace the remaining one. In this case, Thailand's River OPV fleet will be made of, HTMS Krabi, Prachuap Khiri Khan, Ex-Tamar, and the new hull.

Of course, UK River B2 OPV and Krabi class designs differ.
- CMS differs = needs replacement?
- Main gun differs = I understand there is a room beneath the 30mm gun, so replacing it with a 76mm gun shall be doable
- Harpoon SSM shall be added = just add it in place of the 15-t crane.
- UK River B2 OPV has an emergency electricity generator right before the bridge, but Thailand's OPV has operations room located there. Not sure how to handle these difference. However, overall, those ships shall have good commonality overall?

RN will lose a single River B2 OPV. But, the reason RN is sending her to Indo-Pacific region is to "improve UK presence in the region". Immediately supporting Thailand navy to compensate its loss, and doubling the UK-based OPV hull from 2 to 4 within the Thailand navy, will "improve UK presence in the region", I guess?

I guess HMS Tamar and Trent are planned to replace the 3 River B1 OPVs at ~2025. But, the loss of HMS Tamar (if my proposal was executed) can be conpensated by building two "cheaper OPVs" to replace HMS Tamar, like Vard7 072 OPV Image(https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... raphic.pdf) or even smaller.

Another candidate will be Vard7 078 OPV, but it might be too expensive...

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Tamar in Port Blair in the Andaman and Nicobar Islands.

Looks like her camouflage paint work very nice at these tropical area.

from twitter.com/NavyLookout/status/1612014283713396736
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 12:41 …to improve the relationship with UK, how about selling HMS Tamar NOW to Thailand?…
No way - we need more of these type of forward based low cost vessels not fewer. The money obtained will be a fraction of what is needed to replace, so it would just be a cut to the fleet.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 12:41 A personal proposal:

Royal Thailand navy's Ratanakosin-class corvette, HTMS Sukhothai sunk late last year. Tragic event, resulting in 28 lost/missed.

But, looking at the future, as she was used as a flagship for fast attack crafts squadron, they need another ship to cover the task.

One solution is buying used ships. For examaple, Korean Pohang-class corvette may be an option, purchase two of them to replace the sunken and remaining Ratanakosin-class corvettes.

But, from logistical point of view, adding a "ship of classes under construction" will be another good solution. Thailand navy currently has two such classes.
- Korean built Bhumibol Adulyadej class frigate (1st ship delivered from Korea in 2019, and 2nd ship planned to be built in Thai shipyards but postponed)
- River B2 OPV (Krabi class). Two ship built in Thailand, with BAES support.
Among them, Krabi-class OPV is more similar in capability, size and cost, to the Ratanakosin-class.

Then, to improve the relationship with UK, how about selling HMS Tamar NOW to Thailand? Up-arming shall be done at Bangkock, under BAES support. She will directly replace the sunken hull. Thailand navy can build 3rd Krabi-class to replace the remaining one. In this case, Thailand's River OPV fleet will be made of, HTMS Krabi, Prachuap Khiri Khan, Ex-Tamar, and the new hull.

Of course, UK River B2 OPV and Krabi class designs differ.
- CMS differs = needs replacement?
- Main gun differs = I understand there is a room beneath the 30mm gun, so replacing it with a 76mm gun shall be doable
- Harpoon SSM shall be added = just add it in place of the 15-t crane.
- UK River B2 OPV has an emergency electricity generator right before the bridge, but Thailand's OPV has operations room located there. Not sure how to handle these difference. However, overall, those ships shall have good commonality overall?

RN will lose a single River B2 OPV. But, the reason RN is sending her to Indo-Pacific region is to "improve UK presence in the region". Immediately supporting Thailand navy to compensate its loss, and doubling the UK-based OPV hull from 2 to 4 within the Thailand navy, will "improve UK presence in the region", I guess?

I guess HMS Tamar and Trent are planned to replace the 3 River B1 OPVs at ~2025. But, the loss of HMS Tamar (if my proposal was executed) can be conpensated by building two "cheaper OPVs" to replace HMS Tamar, like Vard7 072 OPV Image(https://vardmarine.com/wp-content/uploa ... raphic.pdf) or even smaller.

Another candidate will be Vard7 078 OPV, but it might be too expensive...
I assume the current intention is to replace the River B2's that are advance deployed by T31's as they are commissioned, and then River B2's are switched to home waters to replace the ageing River B1's.

I can see that RN could help the Thailand Navy in the late 2020's - I am not sure we could much now.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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I think thats a good idea, donald son, gift it to them - which will give us a small number of crew in short term, the way i see it that the couple years are going to be difficult crew wise & the B2 are still new so can have a lot of sea days, maybe 2025+ when the T31's start coming on line then think about a replacement....maybe from rosyth if no orders after th t31 is delivered

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Why on earth are people sold on selling a great capable ship doing real valuable work for peanuts?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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If they need something give them a B1 as a stop gap with a None deck penetrating 76mm fitted and some SSGW on the working deck
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 19:33 If they need something give them a B1 as a stop gap with a None deck penetrating 76mm fitted and some SSGW on the working deck
That I could live with as a short term option, even if a gift or minimal price to encourage the Thai Navy to consider ordering T31 and/or more River B2 OPV (Krabi class) as the long term replacement. Even if these were built locally in Thailand, should still benefit UK companies in the supply teams and help to keep both classes of ships visible in the global export market.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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serge750 wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 17:58 I think thats a good idea, donald son, gift it to them - which will give us a small number of crew in short term, the way i see it that the couple years are going to be difficult crew wise & the B2 are still new so can have a lot of sea days, maybe 2025+ when the T31's start coming on line then think about a replacement....maybe from rosyth if no orders after th t31 is delivered
Repulse wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 18:21 Why on earth are people sold on selling a great capable ship doing real valuable work for peanuts?
Tempest414 wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 19:33 If they need something give them a B1 as a stop gap with a None deck penetrating 76mm fitted and some SSGW on the working deck
wargame_insomniac wrote: 08 Jan 2023, 21:35That I could live with as a short term option, even if a gift or minimal price to encourage the Thai Navy to consider ordering T31 and/or more River B2 OPV (Krabi class) as the long term replacement. Even if these were built locally in Thailand, should still benefit UK companies in the supply teams and help to keep both classes of ships visible in the global export market.
Thanks for all these comments.

1: All these comments tells us about the difficulty of "early selling", referred by national shipbuilding strategy. Selling a ship is not easy. Buyer will not come when RN want. Chances comes when chances occur. Grab the chance, when the damage to RN is tolerable, or lose it.

2: As the aim of two River B2 OPVs at Indo-Pacific is to "improve UK presence there", which was dramatically reduced after ceasing the FPDA-related standing escort deployment. And, selling UK assets to Thailand will improve it, for sure. Thailand is a local power. There navy assets are a half of Chinese origin, and another half shared between UK (including local build under UK-support), Korea, Singapore and US. This time, an US-originated corvette was lost, and therefore UK-option will be important for the western countries?

3: As the 1st hull of T31 and T26 to be delivered to RN on 2025 and 2026, RN needs 110 escort crew by 2024, and 150 + 110 (T31 hull2) = 260 escort crew by 2025 (Note that those crew are needed well before they are accepted into service.) Disbanding a T23GP on 2024 will provide 180, but I'm afraid there is no such plan (Montrose's crew will be needed for Iron duke). HMS Argyle is planned to be disbanded on 2027-2028. In short, from where we gonna get that crew?

I guess the answer is, putting escort(s) in extended readiness. Thus, relieving the crew of Tamar (36x2 = 54) will make a big difference.


Then, combining item-2 and 3, I think "selling Tamar now" is worth considering (although not saying it is must). I think, RN can even ALSO sell Medway, if they want. This will provide the whole 110 crew on 2024 for T31-hull1. This can potentially keep the other escort from going into extended readiness to provide this crew.

Tasks in Indo-Pacific "might" be OK, because selling Tamar will "improve the UK presence" there. Task in Caribbean shall be covered by something else, but anyway about a half of the period, there are a RFA vessel. So, the "gap" is only for several months.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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If and it is a Big if we were to sell a River B2 now we might get away with up grading and up arming a B1 and sending it to the Med and sending HMS Trent out to the Indo-Pacific

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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@ Donald
In short, from where we gonna get that crew?

All RN escorts are at this time sailing with 200+ crew to keep up sea going days

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 09:08 @ Donald
In short, from where we gonna get that crew?

All RN escorts are at this time sailing with 200+ crew to keep up sea going days
While disbanding HMS Echo? And needing to disband HMS Montrose even though it can be put in maintenance and used for further few years?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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the fact is the Type 23's are hanging on by there finger nails and cost too much to keep going

As for Echo her crew have been moved on to the unmanned systems not the Escorts

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 09:39 the fact is the Type 23's are hanging on by there finger nails and cost too much to keep going
Then, what is related to man-power shortage?
As for Echo her crew have been moved on to the unmanned systems not the Escorts
As none of the USV systems are capable of ocean-going hydro-graphical research, it is clear CUT.

I think you mean, there is no more need for ydro-graphical research, so HMS Echo was disbanded.
I think it is simply because of lack of crew.

Which is correct, we do not know. But, we both know HMS Echo disbandment was NOT planned. It was a sudden decision to "reduce operational cost" (officially stated, if my memory works)...

Also, T23 is famous for not good enough accommodation. Putting many man/women there will just result in lower retention rate. And, RN is struggling on retention rate. If such a "over manning" is needed, T45 must be the choice. It has an accommodation for a detachment of Marine.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 10:38
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 09:39 the fact is the Type 23's are hanging on by there finger nails and cost too much to keep going
Then, what is related to man-power shortage?
As for Echo her crew have been moved on to the unmanned systems not the Escorts
As none of the USV systems are capable of ocean-going hydro-graphical research, it is clear CUT.

I think you mean, there is no more need for ydro-graphical research, so HMS Echo was disbanded.
I think it is simply because of lack of crew.

Which is correct, we do not know. But, we both know HMS Echo disbandment was NOT planned. It was a sudden decision to "reduce operational cost" (officially stated, if my memory works)...

Also, T23 is famous for not good enough accommodation. Putting many man/women there will just result in lower retention rate. And, RN is struggling on retention rate. If such a "over manning" is needed, T45 must be the choice. It has an accommodation for a detachment of Marine.
Again I say ALL Escorts are sails with 200+ crew to keep sailors sea pay up and carrying out duties they are trained for it is not just a case of putting them on any old ship in Fact type 45's are sailing with as many as 230 crew all the money is being spent on fixing Type 45 and keeping type 23 going and it this that lead to Echo going and her crew now training on new kit for the new MROSS

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 11:04Again I say ALL Escorts are sails with 200+ crew to keep sailors sea pay up and carrying out duties they are trained for it is not just a case of putting them on any old ship in Fact type 45's are sailing with as many as 230 crew all the money is being spent on fixing Type 45 and keeping type 23 going and it this that lead to Echo going and her crew now training on new kit for the new MROSS
So, why RN is to disband Montrose? +20-30 more crew each on 12 active escorts can provide crew for 1-2 more escort operational? (not arguing, just genuine question).

And if so, even if RN disband HMS Tamar early, just rerole her crew to, say, manning HMS Echo to be used for patrol duty (as she did in the Black sea). HMS Echo needs 72 crew but it is on x1.5 rotation. So, without rotation, she can be operated with 42 crew. When operated for patrol, may be even with 36 or so, the same as Tamar used.

There is no need to use HMS Echo when there are HMS Tamar. I am just here proposing to sell Tamar, and just saying RN can find MANY places for her crew.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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If the pacific is so important then divert the type 23 out of the gulf to the region to cover the sale.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 11:30
Tempest414 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 11:04Again I say ALL Escorts are sails with 200+ crew to keep sailors sea pay up and carrying out duties they are trained for it is not just a case of putting them on any old ship in Fact type 45's are sailing with as many as 230 crew all the money is being spent on fixing Type 45 and keeping type 23 going and it this that lead to Echo going and her crew now training on new kit for the new MROSS
So, why RN is to disband Montrose? +20-30 more crew each on 12 active escorts can provide crew for 1-2 more escort operational? (not arguing, just genuine question).

And if so, even if RN disband HMS Tamar early, just rerole her crew to, say, manning HMS Echo to be used for patrol duty (as she did in the Black sea). HMS Echo needs 72 crew but it is on x1.5 rotation. So, without rotation, she can be operated with 42 crew. When operated for patrol, may be even with 36 or so, the same as Tamar used.

There is no need to use HMS Echo when there are HMS Tamar. I am just here proposing to sell Tamar, and just saying RN can find MANY places for her crew.
This is the million dollar question apart from Montrose will have been thrashed to an inch of her life over the last few years and will need a lot of work to make her fit again

Just as a side note if we crewed every ship and Sub we currently have we would need 8000 crew from 34,000

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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SW1 wrote: 09 Jan 2023, 12:03 If the pacific is so important then divert the type 23 out of the gulf to the region to cover the sale.
What if the Gulf still needs it, which it does.

Sorry, for me replacing a platform that is doing the job with a more expensive one makes zero sense - but then again I’m alone it seems in saying replacing the B2s with T31s when the money / focus is needed elsewhere make zero sense also.
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