River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 09:06 For me the 5009 and 4008 are to small and the smallest we should looking at is 75 meters
I think 60m would be adequate for UK waters. Marine Scotland's FPV Minna is 42m and seems capable of handling patrol tasks around the Scottish Islands, out as far as Rockall.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

I think now that there are a number of UK Fishery patrol vessels outside of the RN, the requirement has changed.

Whilst there is still an element of traditional low level constabulary duties, even the B1s have taken on a larger share in terms of escorting foreign warships through UK waters and even forward operating in areas like the Baltic.

Personally for me the Overseas Patrol Squadron should be made up of the B2 Rivers and also future LSVs. Traditionally, the MCMs had secondary patrol roles, and we should be dusting off the MHPC concept again for the LSV. If equipped along the lines we are discussing for the B2 - e.g. Giraffe 3D radar plus 40/57mm gun, then they can be multi-role.

A fleet of 12 B2s/LSVs (with more LSVs ultimately replacing the B2s) makes a lot of sense IMO.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse wrote: 16 May 2023, 16:47 I think now that there are a number of UK Fishery patrol vessels outside of the RN, the requirement has changed.

Whilst there is still an element of traditional low level constabulary duties, even the B1s have taken on a larger share in terms of escorting foreign warships through UK waters and even forward operating in areas like the Baltic.

Personally for me the Overseas Patrol Squadron should be made up of the B2 Rivers and also future LSVs. Traditionally, the MCMs had secondary patrol roles, and we should be dusting off the MHPC concept again for the LSV. If equipped along the lines we are discussing for the B2 - e.g. Giraffe 3D radar plus 40/57mm gun, then they can be multi-role.

A fleet of 12 B2s/LSVs (with more LSVs ultimately replacing the B2s) makes a lot of sense IMO.
With RB1, hydrography, general patrol, MROSS, MCM, T32, LSV all needing replacements / solutions very soon, It would be a very good Idea. BAE ASF mini if you would, BMT venturer 90m. logical.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 16 May 2023, 16:47 I think now that there are a number of UK Fishery patrol vessels outside of the RN, the requirement has changed.

Whilst there is still an element of traditional low level constabulary duties, even the B1s have taken on a larger share in terms of escorting foreign warships through UK waters and even forward operating in areas like the Baltic.

Personally for me the Overseas Patrol Squadron should be made up of the B2 Rivers and also future LSVs. Traditionally, the MCMs had secondary patrol roles, and we should be dusting off the MHPC concept again for the LSV. If equipped along the lines we are discussing for the B2 - e.g. Giraffe 3D radar plus 40/57mm gun, then they can be multi-role.

A fleet of 12 B2s/LSVs (with more LSVs ultimately replacing the B2s) makes a lot of sense IMO.
What do see the primary role of LSV being

For me right now what we have is 3 x RB1's , 5 x RB2's and 5 T-31's on order in build with this we could have 3 x Patrol sqn's something like

UK home waters including the Baltic = 3 x RB1's ( shame we sold Clyde we could have had 4 OPV's here ) to be replaced with 4 new OPV's

South Atlantic including West Africa & Caribbean = 3 x RB2's & 2 x Type 31's

East of Suez = 2 x RB2's & 3 x Type 31's

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 17:41
Repulse wrote: 16 May 2023, 16:47 I think now that there are a number of UK Fishery patrol vessels outside of the RN, the requirement has changed.

Whilst there is still an element of traditional low level constabulary duties, even the B1s have taken on a larger share in terms of escorting foreign warships through UK waters and even forward operating in areas like the Baltic.

Personally for me the Overseas Patrol Squadron should be made up of the B2 Rivers and also future LSVs. Traditionally, the MCMs had secondary patrol roles, and we should be dusting off the MHPC concept again for the LSV. If equipped along the lines we are discussing for the B2 - e.g. Giraffe 3D radar plus 40/57mm gun, then they can be multi-role.

A fleet of 12 B2s/LSVs (with more LSVs ultimately replacing the B2s) makes a lot of sense IMO.
What do see the primary role of LSV being
as quoted in the defence equipment plan, MCM mother-ships. I believe repulse makes the point that it would be a good opportunity to merge / expand programmes.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... o_2032.pdf

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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new guy wrote: 16 May 2023, 17:48
Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 17:41 What do see the primary role of LSV being
as quoted in the defence equipment plan, MCM mother-ships. I believe repulse makes the point that it would be a good opportunity to merge / expand programmes.
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... o_2032.pdf
That’s correct, the paper states that the LSVs are to provide global MCM effect. Combining this with domestic and global role of the OPVs in the Overseas Patrol Squadron ultimately on a single platform to maximise synergies makes sense.

I know there will be the usual people who will state that it is unaffordable, over complex for some of the roles etc etc. But if done right this will be the ever present flexible backbone of the navy. The costs of the B2s were so high because it was used to plug a gap and develop new design technologies, their replacement costs (especially if part of a larger common fleet) would be less.

There will be others who claim that the T31 has this role, but the reality is that the T32 is far away and they will be needed as escorts, not forward based in places where we do not have frigates today.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 17:41 For me right now what we have is 3 x RB1's , 5 x RB2's and 5 T-31's on order in build with this we could have 3 x Patrol sqn's something like

UK home waters including the Baltic = 3 x RB1's ( shame we sold Clyde we could have had 4 OPV's here ) to be replaced with 4 new OPV's

South Atlantic including West Africa & Caribbean = 3 x RB2's & 2 x Type 31's

East of Suez = 2 x RB2's & 3 x Type 31's
I do not see the need for three Overseas Patrol Squadrons, one is enough and doesn’t create divisions where they are not required. It is and would be a pool of vessels that can be tasked according to the need at a point in time.

Assuming the point where the Squadron would have 7 LSVs and 5 B2 OPVs (heading towards just 12 LSVs), for today’s need I would base as follows:

- 4 LSVs: UK and assigned to JEF
- 1 B2 + 1 LSV: Gibraltar based for the Med and West Africa
- 1 B2: WIGS
- 1 B2: FIGS
- 2 LSV: Kipion (removing the need for a LSD)
- 2 B2: Roaming EoS

The only thing that I would also consider would be to perhaps also add HMS Protector to this list also.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Repulse wrote: 16 May 2023, 20:13
Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 17:41 For me right now what we have is 3 x RB1's , 5 x RB2's and 5 T-31's on order in build with this we could have 3 x Patrol sqn's something like

UK home waters including the Baltic = 3 x RB1's ( shame we sold Clyde we could have had 4 OPV's here ) to be replaced with 4 new OPV's

South Atlantic including West Africa & Caribbean = 3 x RB2's & 2 x Type 31's

East of Suez = 2 x RB2's & 3 x Type 31's
I do not see the need for three Overseas Patrol Squadrons, one is enough and doesn’t create divisions where they are not required. It is and would be a pool of vessels that can be tasked according to the need at a point in time.

Assuming the point where the Squadron would have 7 LSVs and 5 B2 OPVs (heading towards just 12 LSVs), for today’s need I would base as follows:

- 4 LSVs: UK and assigned to JEF
- 1 B2 + 1 LSV: Gibraltar based for the Med and West Africa
- 1 B2: WIGS
- 1 B2: FIGS
- 2 LSV: Kipion (removing the need for a LSD)
- 2 B2: Roaming EoS

The only thing that I would also consider would be to perhaps also add HMS Protector to this list also.
I am happy to see a return of the MHCP for me it would have to be on a 110 by 16 meter hull. I would go with a 3D radar , good CMS , 2 x 40mm Hagar & Flight deck plus a 25 meter covered working deck and 30 meter open working deck

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Caribbean wrote: 16 May 2023, 10:33
Tempest414 wrote: 16 May 2023, 09:06 For me the 5009 and 4008 are to small and the smallest we should looking at is 75 meters
I think 60m would be adequate for UK waters. Marine Scotland's FPV Minna is 42m and seems capable of handling patrol tasks around the Scottish Islands, out as far as Rockall.
I do think there is scope for a couple of types of PV.

The first, purely for Fishery Protection in both UK waters and BIOT's, could be smaller. It doesn't need much in the way of armanent (needs to be able to outgun a Chinese "trawler" i.e. those semi-official militia boats which have been seen en masse in disputed SCS and wider Pacific). Doesn't need manned helicopter and would deploy only the cheapest UAV and USV. Big enough to carry a couple of RIB's and a crane, main feature would need to be great seakeeping.

The second, more for general policing, patrolling, convoy escort, HADR, would be larger. Much better armed, able to fend off pirates and regional minor atates, able to cope with fast boat attack and drone swarms. Something like a smaller version of original spec for T31 Light Frigate. e.g. 1*57mm & 2*40mm, mission bays / hangar space for variety of missions including couple of helicopters, variety of light boats / UAV / USV / USuV etc. These would be advance deployed to Carribean / Med / South Atlantic / Indian Ocean.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

The latter class of larger OPV's wouldn't be frontline escorts and could well be commercial builds with some of the cheaper improvements frlom the military designs, with a mix of RN & RFA crew.

They, could be ;built in a vsi7

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

5 River B2s in overseas operation support for 5 years is £250M. £50M per ship.

3 River B1 in homewater support for 5 years is £70M. £23M per ship.

"Overseas" may be costing. Difference between River B2 (with CMS, military-grade 2D radar, and upgrade standard) and B1 (no CMS, merchant-ship-level radar, and simple standard) may also be costing. Would be interesting to know the reason...

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Surely supporting something locally in the UK, versus supporting something in multiple locations outside of the UK is a very big factor?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote: 19 May 2023, 16:15 Surely supporting something locally in the UK, versus supporting something in multiple locations outside of the UK is a very big factor?
Surely to some extent.

But, in overseas, you can use cheaper foreign dockyards, while in UK you are forced to use expensive British docks. Note that, HMS Spey and Tamar went into Japanese Mitsubishi dock (for merchant ship maintenance) last Autumn (when they visited Yokosuka), for maintenance.

Here, cheap and/or expensive, I mean, have frequent merchant ship work, and "doing this work in part time when doing many other works", VS "limited to these works". Former is always cheaper.

HMS Forth and Trent used Gibrartar's dock, which I'm afraid not so cheap to operate.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

The big thing for me is the B1's remaining until 2028 this is good news
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 20 May 2023, 09:12 The big thing for me is the B1's remaining until 2028 this is good news
Interesting as that timeframe slots nicely into the Rosyth drumbeat as well as the introduction of the T31s.

Make of that what you will.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

OPV’s and Frigates being built alongside each other ?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

Scimitar54 wrote: 20 May 2023, 17:54 OPV’s and Frigates being built alongside each other ?
Presumably the first of any new OPV being started whilst the last of the T31 frigates being finished.

Looking at BAE, HMS Glasgow is in the water being fitted out whilst the next 3* T26 frigates are under construction, including HMS London, the first of the T26 Batch 2s.

From memory Babcock currently has three of the T31s undr construction - please correct me if I have misremembered. I beleive the last of T31s is due to be complted in 2031, but that would have finished cutting steel 2 or 3 years earlier.

Both BAE and Babcock will need work once thy have finished cutting steel on the last of the T26 nd T31 respectively. Other than vague rumours of T83 or T32 we do not yet have confirmed work for either shipyard - a concern if MOD are truly to get a 30 year drumbeat going for RN / RFA production, which we need to ensure that both design and shipbuilding skills are not lost in downturn, e.g. when we had previous delays of new ship classes when the existing ships were being run well beyond their due service lives.

Personally I have said that I would have preferred a mix of future OPV.

Fitst I would like some smaller OPV for Fishery Protection in both UK and BOT's waters, and these could have been ideal for Appledore. he aim to keep these ships cheap and simple with low crew requirements.

Second I am hoping to see use of some of the MRSS Budget to build 3-4 ships for a combintaion of HADR, boat and aviation support for RM Company, and deployment of variety of unmanned autonomous systems e.g. UAV for ISR and USV for MCMS etc. Options such as Vard 7-313 have been previously discussed on various threads. I suppose these latter ships might be referred to as OPV, but I am hoping for greater mix of capabilities.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 20 May 2023, 20:54

Looking at BAE, HMS Glasgow is in the water being fitted out whilst the next 3* T26 frigates are under construction, including HMS London, the first of the T26 Batch 2s.

HMS Birmingham actually, HMS London is the last of the class. Babcock has only cut steel on 2 T31. 🙂

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

new guy wrote: 20 May 2023, 21:15
wargame_insomniac wrote: 20 May 2023, 20:54

Looking at BAE, HMS Glasgow is in the water being fitted out whilst the next 3* T26 frigates are under construction, including HMS London, the first of the T26 Batch 2s.

HMS Birmingham actually, HMS London is the last of the class. Babcock has only cut steel on 2 T31.
Thanks for correcting my poor memory.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Scimitar54 »

wargame_insomniac wrote:
Presumably the first of any new OPV being started whilst the last of the T31 frigates being finished.
Not necessarily, it COULD actually be a case of parallel lines ! :mrgreen:

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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donald_of_tokyo wrote: 19 May 2023, 16:10 5 River B2s in overseas operation support for 5 years is £250M. £50M per ship.

3 River B1 in homewater support for 5 years is £70M. £23M per ship.

"Overseas" may be costing. Difference between River B2 (with CMS, military-grade 2D radar, and upgrade standard) and B1 (no CMS, merchant-ship-level radar, and simple standard) may also be costing. Would be interesting to know the reason...
In the press release, it states that the Batch II support contract runs till 2031, not 2028.

So c.£31.2m per ship for five years.

Doesn't seem excessive considering the increase in scale, capability and hotel services over Batch 1.

Makes me once again think we should work on a River B3 as the ultimate successor to the FSC C3 concept.

We're not far off the aims of the C1 and C2:

10 x C1 First class ASW combatants (8 x Type 26)
8 x C2 Medium weight stabalisation combatants (5 x Type 31)

Not to mention the BJ-era 'promise' to grow the frigate fleet to 18... If the Navy managed to actually pull of its early 2000s procurement programme, albeit very late, it really would prove which service understands politics.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

You could probably add to that the vision for 8 C3 minor warships.

If the RN somehow gets 10 T26s (or 16 T26s/T83s) it would have done very well.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Right now for now we know the B1's are staying until 2028 we need to make the most of the B2's and upgrade them with a 3D radar and 40mm gun we then need to push POD's

UAV
MCM
Hydrographic
CAMM
Spear
C&C
120mm mortar

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by new guy »

Tempest414 wrote: 22 May 2023, 19:00
120mm mortar
NGFS?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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new guy wrote: 22 May 2023, 19:36
Tempest414 wrote: 22 May 2023, 19:00
120mm mortar
NGFS?
Shore based fire support we know that NEMO comes in a container if we can get CAMM , Spear and Giraffe X1 in to POD's it could allow better defence of any small port or beach head with NEMO & Spear giving fire support out to 60km and CAMM giving local area AA

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