River Class (OPV) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2783
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

IIRC, the USN did a study using various calibre weapons against FIACs and decided that the 50 cal was far more capable that a GPMG at stopping one (around one minute vs two minutes or more for the 7.62, which is a lot of distance at 40kts plus). That was behind the move to add a 50 cal covering the stern arc to the minehunters when in the Gulf.
These users liked the author Caribbean for the post (total 2):
Lord Jimwargame_insomniac
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Depends. If both is human-controled and with similar rounds-per-minutes, of course 0.5-cal is better than 7.62 mm. On the other hand, if with the same cost, 7.62 mm can be operated in much much higher fire rate. When human-controled, achieving a hit is not easy, and high round-per-minutes helps a lot in aiming your enemy. This is why RN-ships has 7.62mm-miniGuns, to my understanding. (I saw some report noting miniGun's merit over M2 0.5-cal.)

I "guess" 7.62 mm GPMGs are there just to enjoy cheap 7.62 mm bullets logistics commonality with the miniGun.

Are there any 0.5-cal guns onboard RN ships now? If not, why not go with 2nd-30mm turret than adding a 0.5-cal? (not saying which is better, but just saying there are many options there).

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3952
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Caribbean wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 15:23 ….50 cal was far more capable that a GPMG
Perhaps but is the 50cal superior against the Mk44 mini gun at 6000 rpm in all sea states and low light conditions against fast moving craft?

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2783
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

Poiuytrewq wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 15:49
Caribbean wrote: 20 Apr 2022, 15:23 ….50 cal was far more capable that a GPMG
Perhaps but is the 50cal superior against the Mk44 mini gun at 6000 rpm in all sea states and low light conditions against fast moving craft?
I honestly can't recall the details that well, but Brocklesby ended up with three miniguns and two 50 cal. and no GPMG (while in the Gulf), so I suspect they were complementary. IIRC, the 50 cal was judged to be better at disabling the boat and could engage at longer range, so I suspect that the miniguns would be better at shorter range, against personnel, but as I say, it was a good few years ago that I read the article
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by tomuk »

These users liked the author tomuk for the post (total 4):
donald_of_tokyoLord JimCaribbeanwargame_insomniac

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Of course we could just go for GAU-19B's and have 12.7mm miniguns
These users liked the author Tempest414 for the post (total 2):
PoiuytrewqCaribbean

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Trent with Wildcat for trial. (see mobile.twitter.com/HMSTrent/status/1517566548608700417)

River B2's flight deck is very large compared to Wildcat...

Image

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Spey, 30mm gun firing.

Carefully looking, I can see several small debris hitting the water nearside. What are they? Sabots?


tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by tomuk »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 13:33
River B2's flight deck is very large compared to Wildcat...
Did it really need to be big enough for a Chinnook?

Phil Sayers
Member
Posts: 365
Joined: 03 May 2015, 13:56

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Could be pretty useful for getting Special Forces or an RM detachment somewhere in a hurry?

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

tomuk wrote: 24 Apr 2022, 17:04Did it really need to be big enough for a Chinnook?
Hmmm. Having a 30 m long flat quarter deck will shorten the super structure of River B2 by another ~8 m (its flight deck is now ~22 m long). But, it would be nice to see. Move the 15t crane forward (with folding arm) and that's it. The expanded quarter deck can be used to carry USVs, more containers, and boats, if no Chinook landing is foreseen. Flexible, looks like? :D
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
Lord Jim

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Beautiful detailed movie of Irish Patrol Ship.



In comparison, HMS Trent.



What can you see?

For me, HMS Trent looks more fighty than Irish LÉ George Bernard Shaw, although the latter has larger weapon.

Trent VS Show;
- military-grade radar + navigation radars VS navigation radars
- (similar, or same) EO FCS
- 30 mm gun + 2x miniGun + 4 GPMG VS 76mm gun + 2x 20mm gun + 4 GPMG
- flight-deck VS none
- 15t crane VS none
- both have two RHIBs
- backup power generator before the bridge + generators within hull VS generators within hull
- endurance 35 days VS 21 days
- top-speed 25 knots VS 23 knots.

There might be other point-of-view, this is just mine....
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
wargame_insomniac

Repulse
Donator
Posts: 4579
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Trent VS Shaw;

CMS vs no CMS
OPV+ damage control vs commercial standard
Protected magazine vs no protected magazine
50 RMs + weapons vs 10 Trainers

Not that I’m advocating a fight between the two, but I’d fancy HMS Trent’s chances if there was one…
These users liked the author Repulse for the post (total 3):
wargame_insomniacJensydonald_of_tokyo
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Well if the two were to go head to head it would be a good old fashion gun fight and all down to main gun the River class would have to survive that 76mm for sometime before it could get into range once it was in range to use its 30mm it would be in range of both the 76mm and one 20mm so at all time the River would be out gunned yes a River could take more damage but it would be taking a lot more damage before it could get into the fight

Poiuytrewq
Senior Member
Posts: 3952
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Tempest414 wrote: 29 Apr 2022, 11:26 a River could take more damage but it would be taking a lot more damage before it could get into the fight
Totally hypothetical but it is interesting to note that if the Rivers 30mm was replaced by either the 57mm or 40mm it would be a pretty one sided contest.

Add Sea Spear via a POD and the outcome is a forgone conclusion.

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1135
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

The four ships of the Samuel Beckett class are the largest ships in the Irish Naval Service. They are almost small frigates in size if not in role. So maybe the comparison of firepower would be with the T23 or maybe the T31?

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5548
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

The Samuel Beckett's and Rivers are the same size maybe the better head to head would be the Samuel Beckett v HTMS Krabi which is a B2 with a 76mm and 2 x 30mm

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

HMS Spey and Indonesian Bung Tomo class corvette. (from HMS Spey twitter mobile.twitter.com/HMS_Spey/status/1521098923749691394)

Very similar hull size (see wiki) but one with focus on long-range/endurance patrol and the other for war-fighting. Very interesting comparison. As the hull size is the same, as well as "flight deck with no hangar", we can easily imagine what the "war fighting version of River B2" can be. It will be very interesting shots if HMS Spey or Tamar steams along with Indonesian Bung Tomo class and Thai navy's River B2, HTMS Prachuap Khiri Khan (with a 3inch gun and 8 Harpoons, see ref2).

PS. Bung Tomo class is getting modernization from Thales Netherland, with VL MICA, TACTICOS, and SMART-S Mk2, with 3-inch gun and 8 Exocets. (see ref1 )

Image

ref1 https://navyrecognition.com/index.php/n ... -navy.html

ref2 HTMS Prachuap Khiri Khan
Image
These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post (total 3):
PoiuytrewqLord JimRepulse

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Austal new OPV-60 design, interesting in two different points.

1: Can this be a good candidate for replacing River B1s (if possible). Steel hull (not alminum), with modest power/speed, with basic modest weapons/equipment. Can be a cheap, good to replace 3 (actually only 2 are used as OPV, the other as training ship) River B1s on which no resource is allocated for replacement yet?


2: Very independent issue, but what do you think about the many optional equipment discussed in this movie?

- basic patrol variant, with 2x 12.7mm MG, roter-UAS
- surveillance variant, with good radar and ESM
- subsurface variant, with TASS, mine-avoidance hull sonar, and MCM USVs
- security variant with 1x 40 mm Mk.4, 2x 30mm RWS, decoy and SIMBAD-RC AAW system

Of course, thinking as a ship to replace River B2 much cheaper, "basic patrol" is the 1st choice of mine. But, it is interesting Austal is also discussing sub-surface variant, focused on mine-counter-measure and probably mizet-sub handling. The added equipment candidates are surely also applicable to River B2.

These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
wargame_insomniac

wargame_insomniac
Senior Member
Posts: 1135
Joined: 20 Nov 2021, 19:12
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by wargame_insomniac »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 13 May 2022, 15:46 Austal new OPV-60 design, interesting in two different points.

1: Can this be a good candidate for replacing River B1s (if possible). Steel hull (not alminum), with modest power/speed, with basic modest weapons/equipment. Can be a cheap, good to replace 3 (actually only 2 are used as OPV, the other as training ship) River B1s on which no resource is allocated for replacement yet?


2: Very independent issue, but what do you think about the many optional equipment discussed in this movie?

- basic patrol variant, with 2x 12.7mm MG, roter-UAS
- surveillance variant, with good radar and ESM
- subsurface variant, with TASS, mine-avoidance hull sonar, and MCM USVs
- security variant with 1x 40 mm Mk.4, 2x 30mm RWS, decoy and SIMBAD-RC AAW system

Of course, thinking as a ship to replace River B2 much cheaper, "basic patrol" is the 1st choice of mine. But, it is interesting Austal is also discussing sub-surface variant, focused on mine-counter-measure and probably mizet-sub handling. The added equipment candidates are surely also applicable to River B2.

To replace the River B1's then a small cheap OPV with minimal crew is what we need. So the basic patrol variant will be fine to patrol UK home waters, doing fishery protection and generally patrolling our maritime EZ.

We are also retiring our minehunters / minesweepers.Whilst we will be using unmanned platforms to actually do the dangerous side of that work, we still need vessels that can be used to deploy these USV / USuV.

So if we got some of the subsurface variant that would make sense, and hopefully get some cost savings by buying more of the same basic hull even if the systems fitted were different.

I also wonder if some of the surveillance variant might suit some of the BOT for patrolling the various Blue Belt Programme maritime conservation zones. But that should probably be funded by the Foriegn Office rather than MOD. But again would help lower costs if common hull used for these too.

SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by SD67 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote: 04 May 2022, 02:24 HMS Spey and Indonesian Bung Tomo class corvette. (from HMS Spey twitter mobile.twitter.com/HMS_Spey/status/1521098923749691394)
Aren't they disgtantly related? The Bung Tomo class are the Brunei ships that went to arbitration, variant of the then GEC F2000 family

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

SD67 wrote: 15 May 2022, 14:59Aren't they disgtantly related? The Bung Tomo class are the Brunei ships that went to arbitration, variant of the then GEC F2000 family
Is River OPVs also are family of F2000?

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

A report from HMS Medway. Nice to see her back on the network.

Her twitter account does not give any update after 3/11, even now. She was in maintenance? Anyway, now she is actively steaming again!


donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Wildcat landing operation trials with armament loaded, looks like complete.

Carrying two stingrays in (almost) all photo during the period.

These users liked the author donald_of_tokyo for the post:
Repulse

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 7314
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

The more I see of how and where our River Class are operating the more I think we should buy a Batch 3 t replace the original Batch 1s. Given their roles in HADR and anti piracy etc., I think these new Rivers should be partially paid for form the Overseas Aid Budget, especially regarding the help they can give to the multitude of Island Nations we already support.

Post Reply