River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

If the B2's are upgraded with a Giraffe 3D radar, 40mm and 4 x 12.7mm they will only need 1 or 2 more crew for there day to day duties and if we can get POD's running with CAMM and Spear they can be re-rolled quickly to support other tasks like RFA escorts or supporting the Gulf based Escort if POD's could carry say 12 CAMM and 12 VL Spear then a RB2 could pull into Oman and pick up 3 POD's one with 12 CAMM one with 12 Spear and one with 2 x Jackal UAV's this could allow it to conduct convoy duties along with a frigate when needed

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 23 May 2023, 10:13 If the B2's are upgraded with a Giraffe 3D radar, 40mm and 4 x 12.7mm they will only need 1 or 2 more crew for there day to day duties and if we can get POD's running with CAMM and Spear they can be re-rolled quickly to support other tasks like RFA escorts or supporting the Gulf based Escort if POD's could carry say 12 CAMM and 12 VL Spear then a RB2 could pull into Oman and pick up 3 POD's one with 12 CAMM one with 12 Spear and one with 2 x Jackal UAV's this could allow it to conduct convoy duties along with a frigate when needed
Why the fascination with a VL, or canister, boosterised Spear?

We've got Brimstone/Sea Spear ready to go....and we've also got a purpose designed brand new AShM called Sea Venom? Making a surface launched Sea Venom would be far easier and would also be an effective exports opportunity for MBDA.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Phil Sayers »

Timmymagic wrote: 23 May 2023, 12:44
Why the fascination with a VL, or canister, boosterised Spear?

We've got Brimstone/Sea Spear ready to go....and we've also got a purpose designed brand new AShM called Sea Venom? Making a surface launched Sea Venom would be far easier and would also be an effective exports opportunity for MBDA.
I can understand the fascination as it seems to me that having a fairly low cost, accurate, 50 mile plus ranged missile that has commonality with the RAF and is capable against a wide range of target sets would be a very useful way of adding land attack punch. Brimstone does not have the range or the warhead for anything like a comparable capability (which is not to say I am against Sea Spear - against FACs etc it would be a good option) while Sea Venom also (seemingly) does not have much in the way of range and is designed for a totally different type of target.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Timmymagic wrote: 23 May 2023, 12:44
Tempest414 wrote: 23 May 2023, 10:13 If the B2's are upgraded with a Giraffe 3D radar, 40mm and 4 x 12.7mm they will only need 1 or 2 more crew for there day to day duties and if we can get POD's running with CAMM and Spear they can be re-rolled quickly to support other tasks like RFA escorts or supporting the Gulf based Escort if POD's could carry say 12 CAMM and 12 VL Spear then a RB2 could pull into Oman and pick up 3 POD's one with 12 CAMM one with 12 Spear and one with 2 x Jackal UAV's this could allow it to conduct convoy duties along with a frigate when needed
Why the fascination with a VL, or canister, boosterised Spear?

We've got Brimstone/Sea Spear ready to go....and we've also got a purpose designed brand new AShM called Sea Venom? Making a surface launched Sea Venom would be far easier and would also be an effective exports opportunity for MBDA.
as long as we can get 12 Spear into a POD and they can be fire both sides of the ship from the same POD I would be happy. VL would allow 360% cover from the POD weather it is ship or shore placed

Also if we had VL Spear they could be quad packed in MK-41

As for Sea Venom would be nice to have but maybe a bit to much for the OPV's the ability to carry CAMM , Spear and say Jackal in POD's would allow them to defend them self and others against swarm attack if working with a Frigate under taking convoy duties

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414 wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:47 ….VL Spear they could be quad packed in MK-41
Regardless of PODs, VL Spear3 or something similar is very important for the T31 and the FCF.

Quad packed in a T31 Mk41’s cells gives a max load of 128x VL Spear3 plus 16x NSM and and 32x CAMM which probably negates the need for NGS.

Two T31s configured similarly both embarking two Wildcats and operating together in the Littoral is a fearsome prospect for any adversary.

Where does the RB2 fit into such a Littoral group?

A couple of HiCap OPVs like the Vard7 313, (embarking 3 or 4 Merlin each) would complement the T31s very nicely and the FCF would have everything they need for Short Endurance Littoral Strike.

It’s a bargain basement LSG for just over £1Bn but although the RB2 could be added to the group are they really required?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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2 x RB2's fitted a 3D radar and 40mm and carrying CAMM & Jackal POD's plus a unmanned MCM unit would be very useful

As for Type 31 if it just had 32 Mk-41 cells it could still carry

32 x CAMM
96 x VL Spear 3
16 x NSM
2 x Wildcats
2 x Jackal drones

Which would still be a handful

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Poiuytrewq wrote: 23 May 2023, 16:04
Tempest414 wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:47 ….VL Spear they could be quad packed in MK-41
Regardless of PODs, VL Spear3 or something similar is very important for the T31 and the FCF.

Quad packed in a T31 Mk41’s cells gives a max load of 128x VL Spear3 plus 16x NSM and and 32x CAMM which probably negates the need for NGS.

Two T31s configured similarly both embarking two Wildcats and operating together in the Littoral is a fearsome prospect for any adversary.

Where does the RB2 fit into such a Littoral group?

A couple of HiCap OPVs like the Vard7 313, (embarking 3 or 4 Merlin each) would complement the T31s very nicely and the FCF would have everything they need for Short Endurance Littoral Strike.

It’s a bargain basement LSG for just over £1Bn but although the RB2 could be added to the group are they really required?
the big unknown at the momnt is FCF and what is actually happening / due to happen imminently. For example, how dispersed are RM Commando's going to be EoS? We have talked in various threads about LRG(S) being at Company level - I assume at LEAST one T31 would be required to escort the LRG(S). If so, would the remaining T31's and any River B2's be carrying say a Platoon of RM Commando's?

If so then as global tensions continue to escalate, to me it would make sense to up-arm the River B2's accordingly, albeit in a suitably low cost manner, so that RN's main funds can be focussed on Warfighting escorts. If CAMM / Spear and UAV's can be cheaply added to River B2's, then it would give them more punch, whether supporting RM's, carrying out convoy protection patrols as Tempest mentioned.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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We could go with say a buy of

8 x Giraffe X1 Radar 5 for the RB2's and 3 on POD's
8 x CAMM POD's which could be used by the RB2's , LPD's , LSV's ,LSD's and Shore based the last three using a radar and CAMM POD together
8 x Spear POD's same as above
6 x CAC POD's
8 x UAV POD's
4 x ASW POD's

This allows the up arming of a lot classes as and when needed

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 May 2023, 20:13 If so then as global tensions continue to escalate, to me it would make sense to up-arm the River B2's accordingly, albeit in a suitably low cost manner, so that RN's main funds can be focussed on Warfighting escorts.
In an ideal world with an unlimited budget that would be great but cuts are coming so the question is where to cut and where to invest?

IMO permanently upgunning the RB2s is not the priority.

The timeline suggests that as the three RB1s decommission the RB2s will slot into UK EEZ patrol tasking apart from the Falklands Patrol Ship and the 5th Hull which will likely be used to fill any gaps.

Therefore upgrading now will be money wasted by 2028 and the RB2s are already a pretty highly specified vessel for EEZ patrol.

IMO the priority is maximising the T31 to ensure they can fight and win. No need to spend big at this stage but ensuring that 32x Mk41 cells plus additional space for up to 32x CAMM and 16x NSM at build is vital if the money can be found.
Tempest414 wrote: 24 May 2023, 10:02 This allows the up arming of a lot classes as and when needed
Agreed, PODs is important for all patrol and support vessels especially as Phalanx becomes less and less effective.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Phil Sayers wrote: 23 May 2023, 13:37 I can understand the fascination as it seems to me that having a fairly low cost, accurate, 50 mile plus ranged missile that has commonality with the RAF and is capable against a wide range of target sets would be a very useful way of adding land attack punch. Brimstone does not have the range or the warhead for anything like a comparable capability (which is not to say I am against Sea Spear - against FACs etc it would be a good option) while Sea Venom also (seemingly) does not have much in the way of range and is designed for a totally different type of target.
Spear will not be low cost....
Accurate? Yes, but not as accurate in an anti-shipping sense as Sea Venom which will have aimpoint selection from the data link...
As for range....I really doubt the RN has purchased an anti-ship missile with the same range as the original Sea Skua from almost 50 years ago...one of the requirements was to exceed the AD of targets...
The warhead for Sea Venom will also be dramatically more effective than Spear on any maritime targets

Besides if you want over the horizon land attack the sensible move is to tag on the back of the Armys Land Precision Strike requirement...80km+ pinpoint strike using missiles that can be fired from Sea Ceptor installations...

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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We know the cost of Brimstone is 100k a shot do we know the cost of Sea Venom

Spear and sea Venom are two different weapons for different tasks Spear would be for swam attacks and if in POD's shore based area defence and Sea Venom is for taking out corvettes and the like

And why is the army fucking about with a new weapon when Spear 3 has 120km + range

The reported range of Sea Venom is silly at 25km and one would be hoping it is more like 60+km's

Again we are taking about options for the RB2's using POD's as a means of up arming as needed

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Poiuytrewq wrote: 24 May 2023, 11:33
wargame_insomniac wrote: 23 May 2023, 20:13 If so then as global tensions continue to escalate, to me it would make sense to up-arm the River B2's accordingly, albeit in a suitably low cost manner, so that RN's main funds can be focussed on Warfighting escorts.
In an ideal world with an unlimited budget that would be great but cuts are coming so the question is where to cut and where to invest?

IMO permanently upgunning the RB2s is not the priority.

The timeline suggests that as the three RB1s decommission the RB2s will slot into UK EEZ patrol tasking apart from the Falklands Patrol Ship and the 5th Hull which will likely be used to fill any gaps.

Therefore upgrading now will be money wasted by 2028 and the RB2s are already a pretty highly specified vessel for EEZ patrol.
My comment was firstly in relation to the uggestion of uparming RB2s with (presumably temporary) PODS, although I have aid before that I would like to see have more than one single 30mm gun. It looks like we are dropping the 20mm cannons, so I am not sure which would be best option but I would feel more comfortable with their ability to do anti-piracy and escorting shipping EoS if they had more than just a 30mm.

Yes I agree - the RB2s need to be lower priority than uparming firstlythe T45s and T26s, and then secondly uparming the T31s. We have discussed before some of the simplet lower cost upgrades to each of these. But if T31s in partiular are going to upgraded sufficintly that they can act as proper escorts for CSG / LRG / being UK's constribution to NATO escorts in Baltic / Norewegian Seas or in Med, then I believe the RB2s should be upgraded to fullfill some of the missions that T31s, in their initial ordered configuration of global patrol sloop, were intended to fullfill.

There are a lot of ifs in my last paragraph and I accept that. We are banking on the RN getting even modest additional Defence spending to be able to add some low-cost upgrades to the T45s / T26s / T31s in the first place. And if that happens, and if we then have some further additional spend available for modest upgrades to RB2s, thn I would like that. But agree that first of all we need some additional spending available to RN in the first place.....
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Given we know the cost of the SAAB Giraffe 3D radar we should upgrade the RB2's with this as it could open the door to fitting a simple army CAMM pallet or two. The cost in my view would be about 12 million to buy and fit these radars to the RB2's and is first thing to do before any gun upgrade

Also the POD's would be a Fleet wide thing and not just for the RB2's

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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wargame_insomniac wrote: 24 May 2023, 21:39But agree that first of all we need some additional spending available to RN in the first place.....
I understand the point, but disagree with the assumption it’s always down to a bigger budget. For me it’s as much of an approach/attitude issue. The Royal Navy (like all the services) needs to be cleverer and more agile with its budget and avoid wasting it first and foremost, it also needs real contingency, so it can afford these smaller items and make it business as usual rather than “big decisions”.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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HMS Spey sailing from windy Wellington (not so windy looks like this day..).
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Inaugural T31 EoS deployment (Showing the Flag/T31 Promotional Visit) ? :mrgreen:

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Scimitar54 wrote: 29 May 2023, 12:00 Inaugural T31 EoS deployment (Showing the Flag/T31 Promotional Visit) ? :mrgreen:
HMS POW on the 2025 CSG 25 tour

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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With the Prince of Wales on board ?

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Tempest414 wrote: 29 May 2023, 12:20
Scimitar54 wrote: 29 May 2023, 12:00 Inaugural T31 EoS deployment (Showing the Flag/T31 Promotional Visit) ? :mrgreen:
HMS POW on the 2025 CSG 25 tour
Scimitar54 wrote: 29 May 2023, 12:24 With the Prince of Wales on board ?
Missed the HMS bit hmm?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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If you must be pedantic then do try to get it right ……. It should have course been HRH.
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HMS Trent seems to be over it’s recent troubles

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