River Class (OPV) (RN)

[donald_of_tokyo]

Building an additional Frigate factory in Birkenhead isn’t realistic. If it isn’t more capable OPVs to fill the gap what do you propose?

If me, I shall base my plan on “using River B1s crew” here, and propose
- building 3 River B1 replacement simple-simple OPVs with a crew of 25 each
- up-equip the 5 River B2s as follows:

1: add TMMR C-UAS short-range AESA to supplement Scanter 2D

2: review fire fighting and water tight system in view of redundancy = at least the vessel shall be able to float and move even after getting hit and flooded in the largest water tight section, the engine room.

As River B2 has an alternate emergency power generator in front of the bridge (the intake can be seen as a two low box there, slightly port side), what we need to add will be a retractable azimuth thruster underneath the bridge. The same backup propulsion adopted in USN FFG-7, and RFA Tides. (may need power up of the alternator).

3: then some up-arm of the armaments. I prefer 57mm gun, because of US big and fruitful effort on the cheapish and effective guided rounds for it.

Of course, these improvements need more crew. Hence proposing simpler design for River B1 replacements.


PS The up-equipping the River B2s will take time, I think RN can think of leasing RNZN Otago class OPVs to save the day…

[Scimitar54]

Poiuytrewq wrote:-

The Rosyth and Govan yards are at full production unless someone can convince HMT to commit to more T26 which seems unlikely.

Unless Rosyth are working 3 x 8 hour shifts per day and seven days per week, they will not be working at full capacity! With a fuller T31 order book for Babcock, I would not be surprised to find that with hull no’s 3 and onwards that the drumbeat could be at least, if not more than doubled, so maybe between 10 - 15 x T31 by the very early thirties.

Three essential pre-requisites though; Intensive training programmes for the additional construction (and allied) trades, sufficient increases in RN personnel and a commitment from HMG/MOD to achieve this, not least by supply of the necessary funding.

Government cannot expect people to jump up to the plate, if they do not pull their own fingers out first. If they won’t or can’t do this, they need to go!

[tomuk]

Not very many unfortunately but OPVs aren't a substitute.

They absolutely are a substitute where an escort isn’t required.

You are aware that the T31s are due to replace the RB2s EoS when the RB1s decommission around 2028.

If two T31s end up in the Indo Pacific with a 3rd forward based in the Gulf and a 4th in the Red Sea RN will have committed all of the UKs active GP Frigates EoS. Not ideal.

What if the T31s are delayed by 12 or 24 months?

What if the T26s are delayed by 12 or 24 months?

It’s not a case of currently adding mass, it’s a case of trying to cling on to as much mass as possible.

By adding another 5 much more capable OPVs by 2030 HMG completely clears the log jam.

• The two Indo Pacific RB2s are replaced with more capable OPVs by 2028.

• A more capable OPV is assigned to APT(N) ensuring no more T45s are required in the Caribbean.

• A more capable OPV is assigned to patrolling the West African coast, another potential flash point but no need for the presence of a Frigate.

• The ultimate effect would be huge. RN would have all current taskings filled and only two GP Frigates committed EoS (Gulf, Red Sea). Based on current availablity that gives RN four extra Frigates available by 2030 (3x GP, 1x ASW).

Building an additional Frigate factory in Birkenhead isn’t realistic. If it isn’t more capable OPVs to fill the gap what do you propose?

Either do nothing or build more type 31 we don't need more imaginary OPVs.

[Poiuytrewq]

But this also means there is no more manpower to man OPV+s.

Its a simple equation.

If HMG want more mass then additional funding and manpower will need to be provided.

The headcount crisis is more serious than a lack of escorts IMO.

[Repulse]

Either do nothing or build more type 31 we don't need more imaginary OPVs.

Building more relatively high crew intensive but low capability T31s is definitely not the answer.

The answer and requirement is to build more OPVs to a design that is an evolution of an existing one to replace the B1 Rivers and Hunts, which is capable of off board MCM systems and also ASW sensors.

In parallel we must increase the tempo of the T26 build and add more units.

[Poiuytrewq]

Unless Rosyth are working 3 x 8 hour shifts per day and seven days per week, they will not be working at full capacity!

Expecting Babcock to speed up and add additional hulls into an already ambitious schedule seems unrealistic. I am not convinced the current build schedule will be delivered on time.

IMO the only realistic way to accelerate T31 production is to get other U.K. yards involved in building blocks which could be floated to Rosyth for assembly.

[wargame_insomniac]

But this also means there is no more manpower to man OPV+s.

Its a simple equation.

If HMG want more mass then additional funding and manpower will need to be provided.

The headcount crisis is more serious than a lack of escorts IMO.

Exactly, even if there was a magic wand to solve the recruitment issue, it will be 2030 earliest before we can crew what is already planned, let alone crewing any growth in frigate numbers.

I seriously worry that the “the navy needs to be bigger” phrase is just being used for political reasons for people who know no better and just want 10s of frigates on a wall chart, whilst the government dances around stats on total tonnage.

It is clear that the RN is in a precarious state, as are all of the services, but given the threat and increased chance of war, I think a new question is required. For me it’s “what is required and is realistic to allow the armed forces to defend the UK/BOTs and survive by 2030 and how can that improve by 2035”.

[tomuk]

Either do nothing or build more type 31 we don't need more imaginary OPVs.

Building more relatively high crew intensive but low capability T31s is definitely not the answer.

The answer and requirement is to build more OPVs to a design that is an evolution of an existing one to replace the B1 Rivers and Hunts, which is capable of off board MCM systems and also ASW sensors.

In parallel we must increase the tempo of the T26 build and add more units.

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

[Repulse]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

[tomuk]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

It doesn't have the same crew as a Type 26.

[Repulse]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

It doesn't have the same crew as a Type 26.

No, I said almost - still absolutely useless against underwater threats which is our biggest risk from Russia.

[tomuk]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

It doesn't have the same crew as a Type 26.

No, I said almost - still absolutely useless against underwater threats which is our biggest risk from Russia.

T31 will not need a crew 'almost' as large as T26.

If the underwater threat is the biggest threat thanl put a tail on it then. A whole lot cheaper and more functional than starting a procurement process for a class of OPVs disguised as minehunters as you suggested in the other thread.

[new guy]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

Sorry 110-ish isn't anywhere close to 160-ish.

[Scimitar54]

90ish is only half of 180ish, for the record.

[Repulse]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

Sorry 110-ish isn't anywhere close to 160-ish.

Depends if you want to forward base it, if so the 110 becomes 220. This grows the more you add to it.

[new guy]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

Sorry 110-ish isn't anywhere close to 160-ish.

Depends if you want to forward base it, if so the 110 becomes 220. This grows the more you add to it.

Oh no, Guess what happens when you Forward base a T26 instead

[Tempest414]

So what we know as Fact

the IH class is the full fat AH-140 it has a top class AAW radar and CMS , HMS , 44 x VLS , 16 x ASM , 2 x 76mm ,1 x 35mm & 2 x torpedo launchers the Danish Navy have said in open that they can operate and fight this ship with just 96 crew however what they found on FOST was that they needed 117 to operate and fight the ship plus conduct damage control at its most serve limit. Now to this core crew they will add the Helo team and a Doc and if wanted a Flag officers team

For me we don't need to double crew the Type 31 what we need is 2 x type 31's single crewed working 3 months on and 3 off

However we do need to maintain 8 OPV's and the Ice patrol ship

[Repulse]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

Sorry 110-ish isn't anywhere close to 160-ish.

Depends if you want to forward base it, if so the 110 becomes 220. This grows the more you add to it.

Oh no, Guess what happens when you Forward base a T26 instead

Absolutely - but that wasn’t part of the case to have the T26. The T31 was purchased as a light frigate that can be forwarded based.

[new guy]

T31 isn't crew intensive. It needs more crew than an OPV because it has more capability. We definitely don't need OPVs with ASW sensors

Rather a frigate with a crew almost the same as a T26 without any ASW sensors?

Sorry 110-ish isn't anywhere close to 160-ish.

Depends if you want to forward base it, if so the 110 becomes 220. This grows the more you add to it.

Oh no, Guess what happens when you Forward base a T26 instead

Absolutely - but that wasn’t part of the case to have the T26. The T31 was purchased as a light frigate that can be forwarded based.

Your point?

[The Armchair Soldier]

Veering a little too off-topic now. Let's bring the discussion back to the River-class OPVs.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Movie report on HMS Tamar in Pitcairn Island. Very very nice to see!!! Slowly rolling River B2 OPV, in the tropical blue water... Beautiful.

[donald_of_tokyo]

[Ron5]

I'm shivering just looking at the pictures. Inhospitable place.

[Ian Hall]

[donald_of_tokyo]