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River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Aethulwulf
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 14 Oct 2019, 11:47

The latest rumours I hear is there are hopes that the 3 batch 1 River OPVs will have their funding extended to allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed, first to the Falklands (Forth) and then the Caribbean (Medway?). As the remaining B2s come into service, they will be forward deployed to the Mediterranean / North Africa and also Indo / Pacific ocean areas.

When the T31s come into service, they will be deployed to release some of the forward deployed B2s, which will then return to UK home waters and take over from the B1 OPVs as they go out of service.

The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.

All of this is "hopeful", i.e. not yet funded.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 14 Oct 2019, 12:28

They are coming.

ref: "https://twitter.com/UKDefJournal/status/1183665034506973184"

Pictures taken for the UK Defence Journal this morning show three Batch 2 River class Offshore Patrol Vessels at Scotstoun in Glasgow being fitted out.

Image

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 14 Oct 2019, 13:57

Aethulwulf wrote:The latest rumours I hear is there are hopes that the 3 batch 1 River OPVs will have their funding extended to allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed, first to the Falklands (Forth) and then the Caribbean (Medway?). As the remaining B2s come into service, they will be forward deployed to the Mediterranean / North Africa and also Indo / Pacific ocean areas.

When the T31s come into service, they will be deployed to release some of the forward deployed B2s, which will then return to UK home waters and take over from the B1 OPVs as they go out of service.

The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.

All of this is "hopeful", i.e. not yet funded.
Interesting "rumor". The point will be how to find the crew of 5+3 OPVs, while 1400 trained man-power is in short in RN, and PoW crew continues to grow for ~200 more.

Five Batch 2 River OPVs needs 54 crew each (under the x1.5 crew rotation scheme) = 270 crew. Compared, the three Batch 1 River OPVs needs 45 crew each (under the x1.5 crew rotation scheme) = 135. Adding that of HMS Clyde (45), it sums up to be 190. So RN originally needed +80 more crews, for "4 River B1 fleet --> 5 River B2 fleet" shift.

Now, even if the 3 Batch-1 Rivers are operated with "x1.0" crew, it needs +90 more crews = slightly less than that of a T31.

Adding +80 and +90, in total +170 crew is needed, in the condition of "shortage of 1400". So, we must be carefully looking at the RN ships operational tempo, to point out any "stealth-cut" to take place, because "1400 + 200 + 170" shortage is "non-negligible".

By the way, around 2027, RN will have 5 T31 and 2 T26 (not commissioned yet but already handed-over = crewed), 8 T23ASW and 6 T45 flying white ensign. (Of course, some of the T23 and T45 will be in extended readiness, as is now). This is another very "tight" moment in view of crew. So, I guess 3 River B1s will simply be decommissioned here, to provide precious crew for one of the T31 (to save her from being put in extended readiness, right after the commissioning. Good way of using man power, I think).

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby dmereifield » 14 Oct 2019, 14:06

Aethulwulf wrote:The latest rumours I hear is there are hopes that the 3 batch 1 River OPVs will have their funding extended to allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed, first to the Falklands (Forth) and then the Caribbean (Medway?). As the remaining B2s come into service, they will be forward deployed to the Mediterranean / North Africa and also Indo / Pacific ocean areas.

When the T31s come into service, they will be deployed to release some of the forward deployed B2s, which will then return to UK home waters and take over from the B1 OPVs as they go out of service.

The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.

All of this is "hopeful", i.e. not yet funded.


Interesting, that would tie up with the rumours of a second batch of T31 numbering 3 hulls. Fingers crossed. Also have to hope that we don't lose any T26 hulls as a trade off for more T31

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby RichardIC » 14 Oct 2019, 14:34

Aethulwulf wrote:The latest rumours I hear is there are hopes that the 3 batch 1 River OPVs will have their funding extended to allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed, first to the Falklands (Forth) and then the Caribbean (Medway?). As the remaining B2s come into service, they will be forward deployed to the Mediterranean / North Africa and also Indo / Pacific ocean areas.

When the T31s come into service, they will be deployed to release some of the forward deployed B2s, which will then return to UK home waters and take over from the B1 OPVs as they go out of service.

The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.

All of this is "hopeful", i.e. not yet funded.


Without giving away sources obviously, could you elaborate on where this rumour has come from, because it sounds like the sort of thing that's circulated on here all the time. Was it first hand from a senior serving officer or MoD official?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 14 Oct 2019, 17:03

allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed

Sounds like stretching out build monies...
RichardIC wrote:The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.
only then our v own "Liberty ships" strategy will make sense ;)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 14 Oct 2019, 17:50

RichardIC wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote:The latest rumours I hear is there are hopes that the 3 batch 1 River OPVs will have their funding extended to allow them to continue to operate in UK home waters to around 2027 (at which point they will 25 years old).

This will allow the B2 OPVs to be forward deployed, first to the Falklands (Forth) and then the Caribbean (Medway?). As the remaining B2s come into service, they will be forward deployed to the Mediterranean / North Africa and also Indo / Pacific ocean areas.

When the T31s come into service, they will be deployed to release some of the forward deployed B2s, which will then return to UK home waters and take over from the B1 OPVs as they go out of service.

The B1 OPV hulls will not be replaced by any further orders for OPVs, but instead there will a second batch of T31s ordered.

All of this is "hopeful", i.e. not yet funded.


Without giving away sources obviously, could you elaborate on where this rumour has come from, because it sounds like the sort of thing that's circulated on here all the time. Was it first hand from a senior serving officer or MoD official?
All I think I can say is it was from a normally very reliable source.

Regarding manpower, the RN is looking to release manpower from HQ and other shore establishments, to allow a greater percentage of its people to be at sea.

The story is the top command really likes the benefits of the two-crew or three-watch systems, in terms of better ship availability and better for the crew's family life (and hence better retention figures).

Of course all hopes may alter now there is a new SoS, or if/when there is a change of Government.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SD67 » 15 Oct 2019, 08:07

Thankyou for the info - this all sounds very very sensible. Hopefully it will be funded. I was thinking that with Babcock gearing up for two at a time under cover construction there must be some kind of plan for a second batch. If they prove themselves and move down the cost curve it shouldn’t be too hard to sell.
On finding the crews - spacious brand new ship forward based in the Caribbean?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Oct 2019, 08:47

SD67 wrote:forward based in the Caribbean?

The (alleged) location for the fwrd base was quite surprising as there is hardly anything there, as of now.

Nothing much heard lately, perhaps our man on the spot, @Caribbean, has the latest?

Rivers in the Caribbean have been given the rationale that by training the local CG personnel we are helping with the upgrading of those "forces" from boats to more capable vessels
- I buy into that
- but who is going to buy the vessels for them? I think the order placed by Trinidad went on hold, and the vessels ended up in Brazil, instead?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby RichardIC » 15 Oct 2019, 09:24

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Rivers in the Caribbean have been given the rationale that by training the local CG personnel we are helping with the upgrading of those "forces" from boats to more capable vessels
- I buy into that
- but who is going to buy the vessels for them? I think the order placed by Trinidad went on hold, and the vessels ended up in Brazil, instead?


I see absolutely no utility for the Rivers in the Caribbean (and even less in the Far East). The principal requirement is HADR during hurricane season. For that you need a large flexible platform that can land plant, equipment and supplies in quantity, along with good old-fashioned boots on the ground. The Bays are perfect, as we've seen. Rivers would be next to useless.

For chasing down drug runners, where whatever the RN can provide is going to be a tiny fraction of US resources, you really need embarked air that's able to fire warning shots and more if required. Rivers can't do that either.

They can show the flag in a fairly unimpressive way, they can train with local forces, but so could anything.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Oct 2019, 09:42

RichardIC wrote:For chasing down drug runners, where whatever the RN can provide is going to be a tiny fraction of US resources


V true. Never quite got to the bottom of it: are we there - aside from HADR - so that it is legit for the US (non-military) boarding teams to operate also in "our" waters?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 15 Oct 2019, 09:56

RichardIC wrote:For chasing down drug runners, where whatever the RN can provide is going to be a tiny fraction of US resources, you really need embarked air that's able to fire warning shots and more if required. Rivers can't do that either.


I agree in the most part but do feel if Medway was to be sent with 2 x UAV like Camcopter S-100 fitted with I Master radar then its ability gather info would increase. a armed UAV would be better but we are not there yet

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 15 Oct 2019, 10:02

Tempest414 wrote:armed UAV would be better but we are not there yet


https://imgr.cliqz.com/AqlICiZIVRB0NWSV ... C5qcGc.jpg showing a dinky missile on the side of Camcopter

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 15 Oct 2019, 10:15

That is a LMM as said before it might be a bit over kill for suspected drug runner

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 15 Oct 2019, 20:13

Fantasy stuff at the time, but perhaps not far from what is now being discussed.

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/how-op ... rn-part-1/

https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/improv ... on-part-2/
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 15 Oct 2019, 20:20

RichardIC wrote:They can show the flag in a fairly unimpressive way, they can train with local forces, but so could anything.


Isn’t this what the Echo Class is doing all of the time (with a little bit of surveying ;) - they seem to be in the Med or now in the Far East. Yes, it’s not sexy, but nor is it completely useless far from it if with a variety of mission specific off board kit. What it does allow is a subtle level of presence at a low cost, which is less aggressive whilst still being a reminder that the UK is interested in what goes in that region.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 16 Oct 2019, 07:28

RichardIC wrote:I see absolutely no utility for the Rivers in the Caribbean


I largely agree. I do wonder, is all of this stuff about the Rivers is a solution in search of a problem? The batch 2 Rivers are a bad purchase, throwing even more money at them is unlikely to change that.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 16 Oct 2019, 07:54

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Nothing much heard lately, perhaps our man on the spot, @Caribbean, has the latest?

I take it you are referring to the rumours about a base in Guyana. Personally I've heard nothing since the original statement. As you say, there's not much infrastructure to work on, but not a bad choice, though - English speaking (mostly), a bit off the beaten track in hurricane terms (still can get them, but most pass to the North). They've also had confirmation of a large offshore oil field fairly recently, so I think they are looking to develop links with the Uk to tap into the offshore oil industry expertise from the North Sea. They also have border disputes with both Venezuela and Suriname, so might welcome a UK military presence.
RichardIC wrote:I see absolutely no utility for the Rivers in the Caribbean

In HADR terms, there is virtually none, They do a decent job of liaising with, and training, local Marine Police, Fire & Rescue and CG, but they are quite limited. The UK is encouraging the various islands to develop their own CG and SAR capabilities, but these are very small communities, where $1m is a significant amount of money.
ArmChairCivvy wrote:are we there - aside from HADR - so that it is legit for the US (non-military) boarding teams to operate also in "our" waters?

That's a major reason. As I understand it, the USCG can arrest someone on the "high seas", but not in the EEZ of another country (US Courts tend to throw the case out on jurisdictional grounds), they can detain, but the formal arrest has to be under UK authority, so, as local police only have authority within the 12-mile limit and there are a patchwork of EEZs right through the middle of the Caribbean, you need naval/ CG officers from the "owning" country available to make the formal arrest. The US basically has the numbers to cover the "high seas", with the UK, France, Holland, Jamaica, Mexico, Cuba, Jamaican and other independent island/ central American authorities covering their respective TW/ EEZs
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Brasil » 31 Oct 2019, 02:46

I think the River is not comming to Brazil. The last info here:

HMS Clyde - BAE Systems Confirms Ship Will Not Come to MB
  LUIZ PATILHA 09/23/2019 - 19:51
 
BAE Systems, owner of HMS Clyde (P 257) has now confirmed at the end of the day to DAN, through its representative in Brazil, that OPV was actually offered to the Brazilian Navy.
However, unlike what was announced by Save the Royal Navy on its Facebook, HMS Clyde will not be acquired by MB.
After studies, MB formally declined the offer and so the ship will return to England where it will be fully revised and available for a new destination.

EDITOR'S NOTE: Our thanks to BAE Systems Brasil for prompt clarification.
https://www.defesaaereanaval.com.br/nav ... -para-a-mb


Translated to english by google.
MB= Marinha do Brasil (Brazilian Navy)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 31 Oct 2019, 12:24

Interesting; would be good to understand why. Was it’s the ship condition, it wasn’t required, they just couldn’t afford it, or they prefer to buy new?

Personally, I’d buy and keep her in the RN - do a refit /upgrade and then return her back in the FIPS role, allowing the B2s to fill gaps elsewhere.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 31 Oct 2019, 14:35

She would have been a one off ship in their fleet and maybe this was the off putting thing . I agree buy her put her in refit and send her back down South to finish her days

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 31 Oct 2019, 15:35

BAES twitter
A proud day yesterday as the crew of @HMSTrent formally moved on board the ship that will come their home.
ref: "https://twitter.com/BAES_Maritime/status/1189846583858348032"

So the 3rd hull has her crew. To my understanding, now RN has 6 River class OPV crewed, 3 coming soon, and 1 (Clyde) going out soon.

Batch-1
- HMS Tyne : active (doing gunnery drill): crewed (1)
- HMS Severn : now in refit for re-activation : NOT crewed.
- HMS Mersey : active : crewed (2)
- HMS Clyde : active : crewed (3) --> to go out soon.

Batch-2
- HMS Forth: active: crewed (4)
- HMS Medway: active : crewed (5)
- HMS Tyne : in prep. : crewed (6) <--- this twitter feed.
- HMS Tamar : under construction : NOT crewed
- HMS Spey : under construction : NOT crewed

Image

PS A bit scared, the 30 mm gun is aiming you. :shock:

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SKB » 01 Nov 2019, 10:53

HMS Forth is off to her new home in the Falklands...


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Jensy » 01 Nov 2019, 13:57

Tempest414 wrote:She would have been a one off ship in their fleet and maybe this was the off putting thing . I agree buy her put her in refit and send her back down South to finish her days


The Brazilians have three Batch 2 equivalents, serving as the Amazonas class. Possibly, they see Clyde as a backwards step, which is not similar enough to their existing ships to benefit from economies of scale and shared spare parts.

Alternatively, Brazil previously had a requirement for up to eight River class ships. Perhaps they were hoping to buy the entire Batch 1/1.5 fleet. However with us retaining the first three, the Brazilian navy no longer see the advantages in commonality.

Though I expect another country will pick Clyde up for a bargain, I would rather see her operated as a government-owned test bed for unmanned tech and evaluate size requirements for the MHPC programme. Could still provide some cover for her sisters and half sisters if needed.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 01 Nov 2019, 20:03

Jensy wrote: I would rather see her operated as a government-owned test bed for unmanned tech and evaluate size requirements for the MHPC programme. Could still provide some cover for her sisters and half sisters if needed.


now this I like I have to say


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