Irish Defence Forces

News and discussion threads on defence in other parts of the world.
muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

topman wrote:
The Irish Times reports that
Irish officers are concerned about the intelligence implications of allowing UK-based aircraft to collect data over Ireland as they provide top cover for rescue missions.
Reading a bit deeper it seems Irish Air Corps is actually concerned about the potential of one of its roles and thus the Corps' future viability. So perhaps rather than a bit of press anglophobia the real question is whether Ireland actually needs an air corps as part of its military?
If there is one thing on this planet you can be sure of....The Irish times does not do "anglophobia"....very much the opposite...they probably mark Mrs Windsor's birthday in the office.
:mrgreen:

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

muttbutt wrote:or just go get a mothballed Airbus A3XX what have you.
To fly the rangers to Mali? Or for what?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
muttbutt wrote:or just go get a mothballed Airbus A3XX what have you.
To fly the rangers to Mali? Or for what?
Various reasons...we keep getting caught out by not having the on call ability to bring or retrieve people/kit

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Tempest414
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

For me the air corp's needs cleaning up. For me sell the C-235 MPA's and PC-9's and the Learjet and buy 4 to 6 more AW-139's , 1 C-295M and a 737 QC for VIP , troop movement or CAS VAC giving it a force of

1 x 737-QC
3 x C-295 ( 1 x M and 2 x MPA's )
10 x AW-139
4 x PC-12
4 x EC 135

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

Slowly moving forward.
Department of Defence targets new €200m, multi-purpose naval ship

The Department of Defence has confirmed it intends to proceed with purchasing a new Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) for the Naval Service, which could be used as a hospital ship and would be capable of carrying troops and helicopters for amphibious and airborne landings.

A spokeswoman for the department said planning is "underway on this project".

It is envisaged that it will replace the ageing LÉ Eithne as the Naval Service flagship, and could cost up to €200m.

The new ship is likely to be designed to allow it the capability to carry out numerous different types of missions, not just sea fishery patrols.

Military sources have indicated that it could be used to provide humanitarian aid in times of emergency in Ireland and in other countries where conflicts or climate disaster threaten civilian populations.
It could also be used by gardaí, customs, or the coastguard, where required.

The MRV project is being managed by a civil-military project team and work is ongoing on preparing detailed specification requirements for the ship.
“The cost of the MRV and the timeframe for the build of the vessel will only be known once a tender competition is concluded, when a bidder is selected and a contract awarded,” the Department of Defence spokeswoman said.

Military sources told the Irish Examiner they don't expect delivery of the ship until around 2025.

The project team has examined the configuration of other MRVs, notably the New Zealand navy's HMNZS Canterbury.

An MRV could measure up to 150m in length, dwarfing the navy’s largest vessels which are 92m long.

Longer ships will be required in the Naval Service in the coming years because climate change has contributed to far rougher weather and far bigger waves in the Atlantic.
Increased length gives a ship more stability in such conditions.

In addition, the Department of Defence is also planning to purchase new C295 aircraft for the Air Corps.

The current CASAs can fly for nine hours, with a range of 1,500 nautical miles. The new aircraft will have a maximum of 12-hour flight capability and a 2,000 nautical mile range.
https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid ... um=twitter

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

So a bit unexpected, the gov has decided the NS needs more ships because of Brexit related issues so have authorised the DOD to buy 2 new ships, smaller than the current PV, they'll be in the 50 metre length range for use in the Irish sea.
According to the article in the media and how it's worded (Foreign navy, not European) they maybe focused on getting the 2 decommissioned RNZN Lake class PV, although new builds from Europe are also possible. Might be the Lake's would be short term to be replaced in a few years by new builds.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40192794.html

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

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muttbutt wrote:they'll be in the 50 metre length range for use in the Irish sea.
HMC Protector was acquired used, from a class of four. The specs fall teasingly close:
Main dimensions:
LOA 49.2 m
Breadth, mld 7.3 m
Draught, design 3.65 m
Depth 7.2 m
Speed 22 knots
Engine power 2 x 2280 kW
Deadweight 50 t
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

J. Tattersall

Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

muttbutt wrote:So a bit unexpected, the gov has decided the NS needs more ships because of Brexit related issues so have authorised the DOD to buy 2 new ships, smaller than the current PV, they'll be in the 50 metre length range for use in the Irish sea.
According to the article in the media and how it's worded (Foreign navy, not European) they maybe focused on getting the 2 decommissioned RNZN Lake class PV, although new builds from Europe are also possible. Might be the Lake's would be short term to be replaced in a few years by new builds.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40192794.html
According to that Irish Examiner article
In a hard Brexit, the British would prevent EU-registered vessels from fishing in their waters and there are major concerns these trawlers would move into Irish-controlled fisheries.
Surely they wouldn't fish illegally in Irish waters, European solidarity and all that, and I can't imagine the French breaking the rules for one moment !

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

Dude we detain 3 times the amount of Irish trawlers as everyone elses....by that logic our own fishermen are not showing much solidarity.

J. Tattersall

Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

muttbutt wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:What's this future ' interceptor'? Leasing Gripens (as the deliveries of the new one to the Swedish AF will start), or taking the Typhoons off the Austrian unenthusiastic hands as they don't seem to be able to support such a small fleet effectively ( a little bit of help from the RAF/ BAE could work wonders)?
To be honest it's a wish for some undetermined time in the future...there are 50+ things we need before that in various areas. There does seem to be a determined effort to get more advanced SR and LR GBAD radars and new significantly longer ranged SAMs to go with them. We really need a primary radar system to give us a first hand picture of our own airspace.
No point just buying jets if we don't have a clue really of what's happening.
Picking up on this again, Greece's purchase of 18 Rafale jets from France (12 of which are second hand) is instructive.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/gree ... 75749.html

Cost is reported as €2.3 Bn ($2.8 Bn) for the aircraft and weapons. That doesn't appear to include any mention of through-life support, training (incl. simulators) costs, or future upgrades needed to keep the aircraft current. Add to that the need for an air surveillance command and control system to vector the jets onto intruders into Ireland's FIR and one starts to get a sense of the financial scale of the endeavour. There's also a significant personnel element, e.g. recruitment and training of fighter controllers to control the intercepts. True one might opt for less aircraft, different aircraft (Gripen ?) but still without a significantly higher defence budget this would likely only be achievable by significant cuts to the rest of Ireland's defence forces.

Finally would Casement air station in Co Dublin really be a sensible or (from an airspace management perspective) safe place to base jets that would likely need to scramble to the north west to intercept any intruders? So potentially a new air base also needed.

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Tempest414
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

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J. Tattersall wrote:
muttbutt wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:What's this future ' interceptor'? Leasing Gripens (as the deliveries of the new one to the Swedish AF will start), or taking the Typhoons off the Austrian unenthusiastic hands as they don't seem to be able to support such a small fleet effectively ( a little bit of help from the RAF/ BAE could work wonders)?
To be honest it's a wish for some undetermined time in the future...there are 50+ things we need before that in various areas. There does seem to be a determined effort to get more advanced SR and LR GBAD radars and new significantly longer ranged SAMs to go with them. We really need a primary radar system to give us a first hand picture of our own airspace.
No point just buying jets if we don't have a clue really of what's happening.
Picking up on this again, Greece's purchase of 18 Rafale jets from France (12 of which are second hand) is instructive.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/gree ... 75749.html

Cost is reported as €2.3 Bn ($2.8 Bn) for the aircraft and weapons. That doesn't appear to include any mention of through-life support, training (incl. simulators) costs, or future upgrades needed to keep the aircraft current. Add to that the need for an air surveillance command and control system to vector the jets onto intruders into Ireland's FIR and one starts to get a sense of the financial scale of the endeavour. There's also a significant personnel element, e.g. recruitment and training of fighter controllers to control the intercepts. True one might opt for less aircraft, different aircraft (Gripen ?) but still without a significantly higher defence budget this would likely only be achievable by significant cuts to the rest of Ireland's defence forces.

Finally would Casement air station in Co Dublin really be a sensible or (from an airspace management perspective) safe place to base jets that would likely need to scramble to the north west to intercept any intruders? So potentially a new air base also needed.
It is more likely that any QRA would take a hand over from the RAF and would then in turn hand back over to the RAF. you are right it takes a lot more than just buying a fighter

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote: It is more likely that any QRA would take a hand over from the RAF and would then in turn hand back over to the RAF.
Considering that plentiful forewarning and the near-round shape of the space to be 'policed' even a near-sonic trainer might do
- still not cheap; think of NZ giving up jets, to spend the money more sensibly
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Pseudo
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Tempest414 wrote: It is more likely that any QRA would take a hand over from the RAF and would then in turn hand back over to the RAF.
Considering that plentiful forewarning and the near-round shape of the space to be 'policed' even a near-sonic trainer might do
- still not cheap; think of NZ giving up jets, to spend the money more sensibly
I'd imagine that an armed version of the T-7 would probably fit the bill, especially if they can do a deal to outsource the training to the USAF rather than have to build their own training infrastructure. Though as has been noted already, there's probably a few more urgent need to be filled.

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Tempest414
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by Tempest414 »

I would agree that there is a need for more kit like transports and more AW-139's for troop movement however if it were me I would go for 10 to 12 KIA FA-50

edit ; after the transports and helicopters

J. Tattersall

Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

Pseudo wrote: I'd imagine that an armed version of the T-7 would probably fit the bill
I'd be a bit cautious there. While we tend to see Tu-95 Bear MPA Russia has also sent down Su-30/ Su-35 challenging UK/ Irish airspace. You'd really need something like Rafale/ Gripen/ Typhoon/ F-35 armed with Meteor/AMRAAM and AIM9X/ASRAAM to be credible against them.

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Pseudo
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

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J. Tattersall wrote:
Pseudo wrote: I'd imagine that an armed version of the T-7 would probably fit the bill
I'd be a bit cautious there. While we tend to see Tu-95 Bear MPA Russia has also sent down Su-30/ Su-35 challenging UK/ Irish airspace. You'd really need something like Rafale/ Gripen/ Typhoon/ F-35 armed with Meteor/AMRAAM and AIM9X/ASRAAM to be credible against them.
It doesn't need to be credible, it just needs to be vaguely capable. At the end of the day the RAF is still going to defend Irish airspace if the shit hits the fan and given its historical attitude to defence I just don't see Ireland going for anything other than the least that they think they can get away with.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Pseudo wrote:anything other than the least that they think they can get away with.
Other new things:
- Fisheries (and SAR)... doing more on their own
- reactivation in Blue Beret missions (after the trauma from the Congo disaster having worn off); equipping the Irish Rangers so that they can (together with other involved forces) provide a mobile reserve, to intervene when 'force protection' is acutely needed somewhere in the area of mandated Ops

Without having looked at the detail of any plans, the above would require
- surveillance planes (capable of dropping life rafts?)
- more 'boats' of less than 100m LOA (affordable, and thus upping the overall number)
- helicopters (of the size that enables multitasking)
- selective additions to (mobile) fire power - the artillery still operates WW2 guns?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Tempest414
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:Without having looked at the detail of any plans, the above would require
- surveillance planes (capable of dropping life rafts?)
- more 'boats' of less than 100m LOA (affordable, and thus upping the overall number)
- helicopters (of the size that enables multitasking)
- selective additions to (mobile) fire power - the artillery still operates WW2 guns?
They have already signed for C-295-mpa and I think they should add 2 C-295-m for troop and logistics movements. boats they should add some Damen 5009 50m boats . Helicopters just add 5 or so AW-139m . The artillery have L118 and L119 105mm gun's so for me buy 40 or so Bushmaster's have 10 of them in the 6 man config with the flat back able to carry a pallet of 105 rounds with other 30 going to make 1 of the infantry battalions a mobile infantry unit able to back up the mec- infantry company

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

RFT has gone out.
The Defence Forces of Ireland are considering the purchase of a single rifle type to fulfil the operational requirements for Designated Marksman and Sniper Support to replace the existing FN FAL 7.62mm sniper support rifle. The rifle shall share a commonality of features such as calibre, operation system, modes of fire and general functioning. There may be variations in accessories and ergonomics appropriate to the two roles. The DMR/SSR will be expected to remain in service for the next 15 to 20 years and have a proven maintenance and support capability. In the Designated Marksman role the rifle will be deployed by Infantry and Cavalry Units down to Section level. In the Sniper Support role the rifle will be deployed in a sniper pair in support of the Accuracy International .308 AW and .338 SM rifles.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

muttbutt wrote:a single rifle type to fulfil the operational requirements for Designated Marksman and Sniper Support
They are not the only one trying to bridge that gap and making life in armouries a bit simpler; this is from last year:
"Mon, May 25, 2020 11:24 CET

The [Finnish] Defence Forces Logistics Command and Sako Ltd have signed a letter of intent regarding research and development of a family of rifles and preparation of the procurement of a rifle system. The rifle system is intended to consist of two different system configurations including a sniper rifle for sniper use and a semi-automatic rifle for the squad’s designated marksman."
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

muttbutt
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by muttbutt »

The RFT for the new body armour/load carrying system has gone out too.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

muttbutt wrote:body armour/load carrying system
Combining the two in a tight manner might be pointing towards the same system that we have (with many of its components having Israeli origins)
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

J. Tattersall

Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

Irish Army Rangers go to Kabul to help evacuation
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-58309751

and from the Irish Times
Ranger Wing to be sent to Kabul to aid in evacuation of Irish citizens
Special forces and DFA personnel to depart in early hours of Tuesday
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland ... -1.4654244

The Irish, of all people, must be both put out by the actions of an American president who describes himself as 'Irish' and the wholesale inactions of the EU in this matter.

J. Tattersall

Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by J. Tattersall »

New Multi-Role Vessel (MRV) for Naval Service As Department of Defence Targets €200m
https://afloat.ie/port-news/navy/item/4 ... naval-ship
Only just noticed this from last November. I wonder if Macron promoted any potential French bid in his visit of the other day?

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Re: Irish Defence Forces

Post by dmereifield »

Are their requirements similar to the RN's future multi role vessels?

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