AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

[marktigger]

with merlin HM 1/2 they need to add air to surface missile capability to it to increase the flexibility of the platform.

That would make good sense, in such a case the merlin would preform anti-submarine, early early warning and anti surface roles making it a true naval work horse!
We've spent lots developing new weapons for the wildcat, it would be nice to see those make an appearance on other platforms.

thats the problem if Merlin had AsuW capability there would be no requirement for Wildcat in naval service as merlin is a more flexible option in a hanger on a ship than wildcat

[RobWilliams]

On the subject of upgrading the other 8, I think it should be one of the priorities. Surely it cant cost massive amounts and it will be a very useful capability, especially if we need to renew the focus on sub hunting. Looking at the past costs you could estimate 100-150 million which seems like a no brainier to me.

But why? If they stick to the plan of having 14 available for the carrier that's plenty for ASW/AEW work for the carrier group. Those remaining 11 have to cover everything else. That's more than enough to cover every deployable Type 23 in inventory at any one time.

Again, why the priority? Still not seeing any capability gaps that the current 30/25 plan would is producing. The carrier will be well catered for & there'll be more cabs than deployable frigates.

I get what you're feeling, I'd like to have them back in service too. But where is the need.

[marktigger]

On the subject of upgrading the other 8, I think it should be one of the priorities. Surely it cant cost massive amounts and it will be a very useful capability, especially if we need to renew the focus on sub hunting. Looking at the past costs you could estimate 100-150 million which seems like a no brainier to me.

But why? If they stick to the plan of having 14 available for the carrier that's plenty for ASW/AEW work for the carrier group. Those remaining 11 have to cover everything else. That's more than enough to cover every deployable Type 23 in inventory at any one time.

Again, why the priority? Still not seeing any capability gaps that the current 30/25 plan would is producing. The carrier will be well catered for & there'll be more cabs than deployable frigates.

I get what you're feeling, I'd like to have them back in service too. But where is the need.

so we can send 8 less capable wildcats to sea and give ships much more flexibility. Remember Merlins also have to cover the RFA's so thats less airframes available for frigates and destroyers

[RobWilliams]

so we can send 8 less capable wildcats to sea and give ships much more flexibility. Remember Merlins also have to cover the RFA's so thats less airframes available for frigates and destroyers

Bold claim, especially considering that's not entirely true.

If you're talking ASW then true, but arguably wouldn't - in the case of something like Type 45 - a pair of Wildcats with LMM/FASGW(H) be more useful to a Type 45 compared to a Merlin? Especially considering Merlin is more useful on a frigate.

As for the RFA, true. But in which senarios? When part of a CBG they're covered under the CAW's mission. When they're not, surely that depends on the credibility of the threat? Like, for example, are the RFA detachments in the Gulf right now deployed with accompanying Merlins are are they currently relying on deployed escorts to do so?

I'd also like to know where the earlier projection by another user of 100-150 million will come from, what will be cut to make that happen?

Again, i'd like to emphasise this is all academic. Those 8 airframes no longer exist in the eyes of the MOD.

[marktigger]

given RFA's are being deployed in lieu of a warship on many operations which can evolve the Merlin is the better option also has better lift capability on RAS. as for the type 45 if merlin has Anti ship missiles and anti sub capability it can also be a more flexible lift platform for disaster relief or in deploying embarked force.

[shark bait]

From what I understand the merlin is a great piece of equipment that is already worked hard, and that is without carrier and AEW operations.

11 remaining does not seem like a big number to me, especially if there is a renewed focus on Russia and sub hunting surely we would not want to waste 8 of the best sub hunting platforms in the world.
I understand from what you are saying that 30 is enough, but it is much higher risk than 38, and doesn't allow us to expand operations in the future such as with the second carrier or helicopter platform.

[marktigger]

correct the 8 I suspect will become attrition reserves. or could they develop into a utility variant for the RFA's

[bobp]

The Merlin Helicopters are going to be even harder worked as the Sea King Helicopters go out of service. I can see a situation where naval helicopters are used in missions such as Afghanistan leaving even less airframes for naval tasks. There really does need to be a further buy of Helicopters to help cover these tasks.

[shark bait]

The Merlin Helicopters are going to be even harder worked as the Sea King Helicopters go out of service. I can see a situation where naval helicopters are used in missions such as Afghanistan leaving even less airframes for naval tasks. There really does need to be a further buy of Helicopters to help cover these tasks.

precisely, I think they are playing it a bit too close to the wire with the current numbers, and just down right wasteful binning those extra airframes.

correct the 8 I suspect will become attrition reserves. or could they develop into a utility variant for the RFA's

is that not what the HC4 is for?

[marktigger]

thought there were some left over HM1's

[shark bait]

thought there were some left over HM1's

there is, they are the anti submarine variants that we are short on. I don't see the advantages developing them into a utility variant that the navy are now getting 25 of from the RAF.

[marktigger]

yes but if you had those HM1's becoming HM2's releasing 8 wildcat to go onto a corvette sized vessel as the OPV for the navy

[shark bait]

yes but if you had those HM1's becoming HM2's releasing 8 wildcat to go onto a corvette sized vessel as the OPV for the navy

yes thats what should happen with them. I thought you where suggesting upgrading them to a utility variant which would be a waste in my opinion.

[marktigger]

might be useful for vertrep from RFA's but a utility version would be a bit of a dead end. Hopefully the airframes will be preserved as atrition replacements or for further service and not scrapped or end up in a SoTT

[Pymes75]

Had two HC3s doing circuits with a cabin full of Paras and landing about 100 yards from me today. Man, they are BIG cabs! No wonder the HM2s are called "flying frigates" - it's on account of their SIZE!!

[bobp]

I saw my first Merlin at RAF Waddington a couple of years ago, yes its big but so was the Sea King parked alongside it. Unfortunately the latter are being rapidly phased out creating what I believe to be a big hole in future capability. Plus the remaining Merlin airframes will be overworked due to lack of attrition, and maintenance periods.

[marktigger]

RAF never liked the merlin as they didn't get the toy they wanted the super puma/cougar then they changed their tune saying they wanted more chinooks. RAF have goten more chinooks and refurbished pumas (not enough of them).
I hope the Navy get the funding to convert the HC3's and show how good they are.

[marktigger]

Had two HC3s doing circuits with a cabin full of Paras and landing about 100 yards from me today. Man, they are BIG cabs! No wonder the HM2s are called "flying frigates" - it's on account of their SIZE!!

have heard their nicknamed "Flying Frigates" not only because of their size but because they are so capable. Only thing they can't do is anti ship ops as the Sea Venom and Martlet LMM. Speaking to a Merlin pilot he felt that if Merlin got ASM's the need for wildcat in the navy would be questioned.

[Pymes75]

have heard their nicknamed "Flying Frigates" not only because of their size but because they are so capable. Only thing they can't do is anti ship ops as the Sea Venom and Martlet LMM.

Yes, I know. I was joking about the size thing... I have seen Merlins before at RIAT but it still surprised me just how big they are (most likely helped by the fact that they were landing 50ft away from where I was working!).

[marktigger]

yes the down draught gets interesting> RAF claimed you couldn't do SAR with them because of it!

[Gabriele]

Something originally meant for Nimrod MRA4 has been mandated for installation on Merlin HM2, with all the helicopters due to be fitted between March and October 2016, a written answers in the Lords shows. http://qnadailyreport.blob.core.windows ... -06-17.pdf

Not sure what. Multistatic Active Coherent processing and sonobuoys...?

[raven111]

Shouldn't this thread really be in the RN board now that all of the HC3s have been transferred to CHF?

[GibMariner]

Parliament question & answer regarding Crowsnest:
http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2015/06/2 ... -answered/

[-Eddie-]

42 Commando, along with the other services, have been practising CSAR with the Commando Helicopter Force's Merlins.

More than half a dozen helicopters from the Fleet Air Arm, Royal Air Force and Army Air Corps, plus ground crews, commandos and ‘enemy’ troops converged on the forbidding terrain outside Okehampton to practise the art of extracting comrades by helicopter under enemy fire – ‘Joint Personnel Recovery’ in modern-day military jargon.

The commandos’ new battle wagon, the big green Merlin Mk3 which is taking over from the veteran Sea King, was the star of the show, being chosen for the rescue mission, but they weren’t alone in Devon skies.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... ter-rescue

[rec]

Is it still likely that between 2-8 of the orphan hm1s will be converted to Hm2 standard?